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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that update.

The problem with delayed discharge, or bed blocking, as it is commonly called, is that it is exactly that—it is bed blocking. I presume that that is bad for two reasons. The person who is languishing in hospital, who should not or does not need to be there, would rather be, and should be, somewhere else, wherever that is. Equally, there is someone at the other end of the spectrum who could be occupying that bed but is on a waiting list—and we all know what waiting lists look like at the moment.

It seems to me that half of the job is yours, and you are doing your best, but the other half of the solution is not working, because you cannot discharge people if you have nowhere to put them and there is no plan in place to look after them. You have a duty of care to look after your patients, and you would not want to send them out to their homes with no care package and with nobody to look after them, so you keep them—I understand that.

Is that your mitigation? Are you saying, “We’ve done as much as we can, but local authorities haven’t got the money to look after folks, so we have to keep them.”?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Mr McCallum, this must make for very uncomfortable listening. You are director of health and social care. We have heard from health professionals what the issue is. They cannot get people out of hospital because the social care system is not delivering, but people in the social care system will say, “There are simply far too many people being put into our system and we haven’t got the money to deliver the care.” From a holistic point of view, have you got this all wrong?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

I was trying to let you off the hook a little bit there, but okay.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Anybody who speaks to local authorities will know that they are really struggling. For example, there are simply not enough places in care homes and there are not enough staff to treat people in their own homes. Frankly, when someone is in a hospital environment, that is not seen as the local authorities’ problem; it is the NHS’s problem. There does not seem to be any joined-up thinking. I appreciate what you say about integration boards but, for far too many people, the system is simply not working. If it was working, we would not have so many people in delayed discharge or struggling to get a place in a care home, and we would not have so many people having to pay to go private.

Do you admit that there is an issue? Given the numbers that we have just spoken about and that things are getting worse, not better, it sounds a bit like an emergency that we need to deal with.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Just before you go on, that is way off target.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “NHS in Scotland 2023”

Meeting date: 20 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Yes, but not everyone who presents at A and E will need to stay overnight or will need a bed. They simply need to be seen by somebody. Are you looking at that?

10:15  

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Just to get this right, there are people who had body-worn cameras but who no longer have them. What has been the feedback from the officers about that? Are they happy about that removal or are they upset about it? Do they feel less safe?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

My questions are slightly different, convener, so if Graham Simpson wants to go first, that is fine.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

There is no right or wrong answer.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

You have more prisoners and fewer staff. That does not sound like a good mix.