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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 27 April 2025
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Displaying 1499 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

I am trying to explain that, from an accountability perspective, money that the UK Government provides to councils has to be bid for. We have already agreed that that process is inefficient, as some public expenditure is lost through days of inefficiency. It is not the same as money being set aside, with assistance on how councils should spend it from the Scottish Government, because that is done on a universal basis. I am just trying to confirm that my understanding is correct.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

Yes.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

Yes. I accept your point, because until we have the data, we cannot start to make that assessment. I do not know whether Emma Congreve has anything to add in response to my two questions.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

Yes—I am trying to make that distinction. It is not like for like in quite the way that was set out.

I turn to my other question. I am interested in the point that you make at paragraph 13 of your submission. Can you give us a bit more flavour on disaggregating data in order to distinguish between employment activities that are in the public sector in Scotland but are not in the public sector in England? From the point of view of comparing apples with apples, that is very interesting, because the picture is quite opaque when we look at that per capita spend.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

For what it is worth, I think that it is very good to have that. It is a positive, and I wanted to get the understanding of it on the record, so I thank you for that.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

I have quick question on something that has come up a number of times in a variety of these sessions about the budget process. I fully accept what you are saying—I think that most people would agree that it is somewhat inefficient. Do you collect any data about that? When I say “inefficient”, I mean these late changes at the 11th hour, where you think you that have spend, you allocate it and then you need to move it from budget pots or whatever—there is a whole variety of things.

Do you have any sense of the additional cost of doing that in terms of hours accrued, because that is a hard figure? You must be collecting days spread throughout all the departments that are working on it. Do you have any sense of that—apart from loss of hair?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Resource Spending Review Framework

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

Good morning. I have a couple of questions for Professor Heald.

I have to say that your comments on accountability were music to my ears, as I have raised the issue a number of times with different committee witnesses, not least Mr Gove, who recently appeared before us on behalf of the UK Government. I asked him specifically how Audit Scotland would be liaised with to check on spend that had been provided by the UK Government. I have to say that he was less than certain in his response, which I think—I am paraphrasing—was, “However they want.” Therefore, I think that you have touched on a very important area.

That said, the other important area is how, in efficiency terms, we attribute a cost to the bidding war that you have alluded to. Do you have any sense of the cost to English local councils of, as you describe it,

“bidding for UK-controlled resources in the way that has become dysfunctional in England”?

Can you furnish us with any figures on that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

Thank you. There is a bit more detail that it would be useful to have about how things are working specifically. I am aware that there has been a lot of reworking of the determination of the loan book at UK Government level. It has been through a number of iterations, and there is some sleight of hand there in accounting terms, which I am aware of, too. That is probably a technical term that I should not have used.

In some respects that does not matter. What interests me is why we should care. In other words, what, specifically, has this got to do with the Scottish budget? Why are we having this technical change of £298.7 million appearing for us—given that it is a loan book—while we do not have student loans in Scotland? That is what I do not understand.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

So it really is just a technical thing. It is not—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 8 March 2022

Michelle Thomson

In asking this question, I acknowledge that the year-end processes are complex at this level across this number of budget lines. That is taken as a given. We get a lot of commentary that the way in which the fiscal framework works is inefficient, and that means that there is a cost to the public purse. I suppose that is what I am driving at: the constant changes—stuff coming in from left field—are incurring a cost, and that is inefficient for public sector expenditure. That is the reason why I am asking this, rather than any other reason.