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I will answer you very directly, Mr Smyth. There is a concern. I respect the role of the local authorities in the administration of SDS, but I have asked officials to look at the issue, and I will be happy to update you directly—with the rest of the committee, if it is interested.

I welcome that challenge, and I share the ambition that has been expressed. When discussing any aspect of the labour market, we can sometimes reduce things to numbers and just talk about the contribution being made to the overall economy and to employment. First and foremost, work is a fundamental right, and we want to ensure that everyone in Scotland has the opportunity to participate fully in employment for its intrinsic value, not just because of its instrumental outcomes in supporting economic growth and economic activity. I align myself with that ambition, that sentiment and that fundamental belief.

However, I also make it clear that we face a significant challenge. We are contending with ingrained and long-standing societal and cultural barriers, and that issue is reflected in the timescales that we have set out. When we look back at our base year of 2016, we see that, at the time, the Learning and Work Institute, I think, commented that the UK, on its rate of progress, was going to take 200 years to eliminate the disability employment gap. We are talking about halving the gap by 2038.

We have significant progress to make, but we have made tangible progress since 2016; indeed, those 7 percentage points give us the second lowest disability employment gap in the UK. We recognise, though, that there is still work to be done, hence the range of initiatives that we have put in place, whether it be engaging with employers through the public social partnership and the workplace equality fund or our work to roll out our place-based and person-centred approach to employability.

I want to ensure that we set ourselves a target that we can achieve. I am conscious that it is important to deliver it if we are to maintain confidence, but I do not want it to seem that we are not ambitious to go further—we are. This is an ambition that we are all share, and it is an ambition that the Government is committed to working in partnership to deliver.

That is a completely fair, reasonable and legitimate question, and I appreciate that it is one that has been raised at the committee by a number of stakeholders. I also recognise the views that have been expressed by stakeholders with regard to the value that is conferred by multiyear funding. I am conscious that the committee has taken evidence from organisations that have had quite extended periods of funding about the certainty that that provides. I recognise that, when that is not the case, it can have a material impact on delivery on the ground.

That is not a set of circumstances that any of us would want to be in. I make it clear that the Scottish Government would not want to be in those circumstances. However, we have taken the decision about the budget in the context of a very challenging set of public finances. I have recently taken up the post of minister with responsibility for employment. Prior to that, I was the minister with responsibility for public finance for three years, so I was acutely aware of the challenges that we face and the extremely difficult decisions that the Government has had to take to ensure that we can deliver sustainable public services and meet our requirements to deliver a balanced budget.

With regard to the funding that has been allocated, we have worked to ensure that it can help to maintain the priority services on the ground, so that our funding will be consistent with our broader aims and ambitions on employability and fair work, but also with our commitment to halving the disability employment gap.

In response to your first question, the intention is that the amending regulations will be laid on Friday, so the committee will have sight of those.

On your second question, I will be consistent with the views that I have shared with the representatives of tenants and pub-owning businesses whom I have met prior to this morning’s session. I recognise that there are strong views on the pubs code. Given that concern has been expressed that the code, as it is proposed in the regulations, may well be—or is potentially perceived to be—to the detriment of the interests of tenants, I want, in the first instance, to address that specific point. All of us would want to ensure that the legislation that we pass is well understood and is perceived to be of benefit, including of practical benefit.

My approach will be to engage with both parties—I always seek to take such an approach. I am more than happy to engage with any members of Parliament who are interested in this matter, as well as with stakeholders more widely. I want to have further engagement, which will inform the process that we take with regard to a consultation. The intention would be to consult over the summer and to keep the process short, but long enough that we provide an opportunity for all parties to express clear views on the matter. We want that consultation to be focused on addressing the key issues.

The second aspect that I referred to is the fact that there is a requirement in the legislation to review the pubs code. That will afford an opportunity for further broader consideration. I am conscious that the legislation was passed by Parliament more than three years ago. There is a strong desire among stakeholders—especially tenants’ representatives—and on the part of Neil Bibby, who is the member who brought the Tied Pubs (Scotland) Bill to Parliament, for the legislation to be implemented, and I want to ensure that we can meet those asks.

As I said, in the first instance, my focus will be, through further engagement with the sector and any other interested parties, to understand their concerns fully and more deeply and to see whether we can identify some areas of common ground. After that, as you would expect, we will have a focused consultation. Once that consultation has concluded, we will be in a position to consider the feedback that we have received and to bring forward amending regulations for a revised Scottish pubs code. We recognise that, as per the statutory requirements for review, there will be an opportunity for further consideration.

Although I have said that our aim is to bring a revised code into force no later than early 2025, I would, naturally, want that to happen sooner. What will determine whether that will happen sooner will be the progress that we make over the summer. We want to be in a position—I think that this is a shared view—to bring forward amending regulations as soon as possible, but we want to do so in a way that is consistent with providing an opportunity for targeted engagement and consultation.

I am happy to give that assurance to Mr Fraser and the committee. I met representatives of the Beer and Pub Association on Friday of last week, and they have shared that correspondence. I can confirm that my officials will be engaged in detailed dialogue. As I hope the committee will appreciate, I would like to have time to consider those points and to have an opportunity to discuss them with both the associations and wider stakeholders before we bring forward proposals for consultation. I want to give the reassurance, however, that we will be engaging constructively and taking each of the points that have been made for detailed consideration.

Again, I recognise that point. I will be candid. We have spoken about multiyear funding, the certainty that it can provide and the opportunities that it can create for developing innovative, intensive and supportive practice. The converse is also true: I fully accept that, when there are delays in awarding of funding, that creates uncertainty and can inhibit delivery on the ground.

We work to ensure that we can finalise awards as quickly as possible. The most candid answer that I can give for why that does not take place is to say that it is simply a reflection of the extremely challenging set of circumstances that we find ourselves in with regard to the public finances. Since I came into post, I have been keen to work with colleagues in the Government to identify ways in which we can address the issue that you identify.

We are all familiar with the fact that our broader funding landscape is dependent on various factors that are not within the direct control of the Scottish Government. That creates challenges with regard to our ability to provide multiyear financing. I want to work with colleagues to address the issue so that, when a budget is allocated, we ensure that the award goes out as swiftly as possible, to provide certainty to partners on the ground.

I assure the committee that, along with my officials, I have considered these matters in considerable detail. As I set out in my statement, if the Government considered it to be possible to withdraw the regulations, that is the approach that we would take.

However, the position is that we have had to bring forward the regulations to comply with the requirements that are set out in the 2021 act. That was a decision by Parliament, and ministers are bound by statute. However, given the significant concerns that have been raised with me since I came into post, I think that it would be far more efficient, effective and, crucially, in the interests of tenants and pub-owning businesses—notwithstanding that we do not have the opportunity, in the view of the Government, to withdraw the regulations—for us to create further space to allow for focused and targeted consultation to seek to address those points, recognising that there is a strong divergence of views on certain issues between the relevant parties. We will seek to create the space to address those points and to build consensus, with the ultimate aim of bringing forward a revised pubs code that can command the confidence of both sides of the sector.

I reiterate my apologies to the committee. As I say, this is an unorthodox approach and is not one that I would have chosen. However, we are bound to comply with the terms of the 2021 act as passed by Parliament.

Good morning. As, I am sure, you can all appreciate, it has been a difficult balancing act to arrive at a Scottish pubs code that fulfils the intention of the 2021 act and meets the regulatory principles while, at the same time, fully addressing the concerns of stakeholders who, on certain matters, are not in agreement.

The task has been made more difficult by the legal challenges to the act, including the interim interdict orders that were in place, which meant that further targeted consultation has not been possible over an extended period of time. The legal challenge concluded only in March 2024, when the United Kingdom Supreme Court refused the petitioner’s application for permission to appeal.

As you know, stakeholders have concerns about the regulations—in particular, about the Scottish pubs code. I have been made aware of real concerns among tenants and pub companies about varying aspects of the code. That concerns me greatly.

I want to be clear that, had it not been for the legal requirement for Scottish ministers to lay the code by the deadline that is set out in section 4 of the 2021 act, which now requires me to lay the code as soon as is reasonably practicable, I would have withdrawn the regulations. I am not able to do that, so I have decided to create space and time for further dialogue on the Scottish pubs code within the tied pubs sector. I will do that by bringing forward an amending instrument, which I intend to lay this week, which changes the coming-into-force date of the code to 2025. That will provide time for Scottish ministers to carry out a further focused and targeted consultation on the Scottish pubs code. I intend to then introduce a further SSI making amendments to the Scottish pubs code.

I will keep the delay to a minimum and will engage with stakeholders to ensure that we can bring the legislation into force as soon as possible. I have already committed to introducing an amending SSI in response to technical issues that were raised by the Delegated Powers and Law Reform Committee.

My intention is to engage fully with stakeholders on specific matters, so that the code delivers more effectively the improvements that the sector wishes to see. The purpose of the code is to improve the position of tied pub tenants. Therefore, it must not be—or be perceived to be—to the detriment of tenants. I should be clear, however, that I need the sector to work with me on this and to do so pragmatically. The Scottish pubs code needs to be fair and proportionate. My aim is for consensus, as far as that is possible.

The shape of the code has largely been predetermined by the 2021 act, which was approved unanimously by Parliament. We will not be reopening policy debates on what the act should have contained or whether legislation should be in place, or, indeed, on the full content of the code. I want to focus on key areas of concern.

I apologise to the committee for the somewhat unorthodox approach that we are having to take. However, I want to give my commitment on the official record that my officials and I will work with representatives of tied pub tenants and pub-owning businesses to improve the Scottish pubs code over the coming months, with a view to a revised code coming into force as early as possible. I expect that to be no later than early 2025.

Once in place, the code will be monitored and enforced by the Scottish pubs code adjudicator. Furthermore, the 2021 act requires that the work of the adjudicator and the code be reviewed within two years, and every three years thereafter. We are obliged, therefore, to continue to ensure that the code is proportionate and in keeping with the obligations of the act.

I welcome any questions, but I hope that the committee will bear in mind my comments in my opening statement and the likelihood that I will be reconsidering points that you have raised.

The employability landscape has moved on since the supported employment review and the individual placement and support review—which the committee has had some interest in—and I think that the committee will recognise that.

I will give that detailed consideration very soon, and I am happy to update the committee in writing about the outcome. I do not want to pre-empt what the outcome will be, but I can provide an update on the thinking that has taken place to date. We recognise the importance and value of specialist support, which will be critical for some disabled people in accessing work.

It is all about taking the data, learning from it and then applying that learning in a way that leads to actual change on the ground. In the fair work evidence plan, for example, there is the monitoring of our progress towards being a fair work nation, and there is also the monitoring and evaluation of our actions in the fair work action plan. There is also the requirement to develop our understanding of the evidence and data that we will need to inform future policy making.

I am always keen to read parliamentary committee reports on any area for which I have portfolio responsibility, but having come into post only very recently, I will be extremely keen to hear the committee’s considered views on this matter. The point that I would make, though, is that this is not something static; it is live. Society develops, and changes occur. As a result, my third point, which was about getting evidence that allows us to understand the evolving landscape and how that can inform future policy development, is going to be key to our meeting the commitment to halving the disability employment gap by 2038.

I am conscious that we are 14 years away from that. If we think back to what the workplace was like 14 years ago—indeed, even four years ago, or perhaps slightly more than that, to take us back to the pre-pandemic period—we can see some of the significant changes that have been made with regard to flexibility. We cannot simply say, “We’ve got a plan and it is going to see us through the next 20 years.” Principles, targets and values are absolutely important, but it is also important to be responsive to societal shifts and changes and new innovation in technologies and take every opportunity to apply that learning and innovation to support our reaching the target.