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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 14 November 2025
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Displaying 958 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Scotland’s Commissioner Landscape

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I am pleased that Allan Faulds talked about outcomes, because I was going to ask about those and about how we measure them. Adam Stachura, you talked a lot about effectiveness, which is completely understandable, but one of the concerns that the committee has seen in the evidence that we have received is that it is hard to identify how effective commissioners are and whether going down the commissioner route is the best way of solving issues. I would be happy to hear people’s thoughts on how we measure the effectiveness of commissioners and the outcomes.

I also want to follow up on the point that Allan Faulds made about the route. Are commissioners being used in some cases as a deflection by Parliament and Government, whereby responsibility for an issue that we all identify as an issue is deflected away from Government or Parliament to a body that is not cheap but which is perhaps cheaper than actually dealing with the problem. That might not be the case in all areas but, given that different commissioners have different responsibilities and we have some that advocate and some that have regulatory powers, is there any concern that they could be used almost as a deflection?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

You are suggesting that £4 million is an inconsiderable—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So, officials were aware of the precise figures in November.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So why was it a surprise when the revised costs came out? Surely your officials should have had an idea that the costs were going to increase substantially.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

You did not expect them to be revised, but did you ask for any—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I understand that it is zero point whatever of the budget, but given the pressure that Police Scotland is under, that will still have an impact. Do you have any estimates—

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Okay. In March, I said to Mr Bunch:

“in September 2023, Police Scotland raised concerns ... Did it give you a figure at that point, or did you go back to Police Scotland and ask it to revise the costs and provide you with updated parameters, in effect?”

Mr Bunch replied:

“No. We did not know the figure until it was published as evidence to the committee.”—[Official Report, Finance and Public Administration Committee, 26 March 2024; c 21.]

It appears that you were not aware of any increase for a long time. You said that you asked your officials to interrogate the figures. When did you ask them to do that?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I will ask my last question. We have talked about increased costs—obviously, that discussion went on considerably. Do you have an estimate of the impact on front-line policing time that the changes will make, given that the costs have gone up because of additional training needs?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I might be being unfair, but I think that people who are watching these proceedings will find what has happened hard to understand. There has been a threefold increase in the costs, to £5 million. Officials were talking to Police Scotland and were aware that the figures were going to increase yet, in March, prior to giving evidence, they were still surprised by the level of the increase. Surely an approach should have been taken that at least gave you an idea of by how much the figures were going to increase. Surely you should have been engaging with Police Scotland on that. It sounds as though those figures were not interrogated and that not enough questions were asked.

Do you think that where we are now with the figures is acceptable? Have any lessons been learned by officials, or are there any lessons that you will ask Police Scotland to learn in relation to the disparity between the figures that it initially suggested and those that it submitted?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Police (Ethics, Conduct and Scrutiny) (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 7 May 2024

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So, you are suggesting that the situation that has arisen is purely a matter of Police Scotland needing to revise how it considers such matters, rather than its being a result of its not having been provided with enough information to make the calculations accurately in the first place.