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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 2 December 2025
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Displaying 966 contributions

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Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Good morning. I have a number of questions, but I will follow up on some of the issues that have already been raised. Why did you request that your officials attend those nine meetings? Would they normally have attended, or was that unusual?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So, issues were being raised and leadership concerns were coming into the public domain. It seems that you met with the leadership, despite there being issues with the on-going leadership, but you did not determine at that point that the situation was serious enough for you, as the person at the very top, to meet, listen to and hear directly from the board, as previous cabinet secretaries had done?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

I appreciate why an organisation may want to meet with you as the cabinet secretary, particularly to speak about funding. However, those are issues that could have been dealt with at official level. Would they normally be dealt with at official level?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

What were your officials telling you?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Thank you.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Did you request to attend a board meeting?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Okay. You have talked about financial resources. There is a new chief operating officer, and I am not aware—you may or may not be aware—whether that position has been budgeted for. I asked Sir Mark Jones whether there would likely be redundancies, and he was not able to answer—understandably, given his role—but I think that he expects that people will be moving on. Do you expect that people will be leaving HES? Could some of the resources that you talked about be used to make redundancy payments or pay people off? If so, would you have to sign off that additional budget?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

Even if there had not been any issues within the organisation, I think that the public who are watching this meeting will ask why the cabinet secretary with responsibility for the organisation did not attend any board meetings and did not have that relationship. I think that they will be particularly surprised, shocked or appalled that, even when you were aware—you have said that you were aware—that there were serious issues with the organisation, you still did not attend board meetings. Do you understand why the public might be concerned about that?

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 6 November 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

So, you were aware that there were issues, but you wanted to get a better idea of what the issues were.

Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee [Draft]

Historic Environment Scotland

Meeting date: 30 October 2025

Jamie Halcro Johnston

My last question is slightly different.

You answered some questions from Dr Allan on closures. You will appreciate that all that is happening is a great distraction from the work of the organisation. This is a slightly smaller example—and I will get the pronunciation wrong—but I have had raised with me the case of the Knocknagael stone, a Pictish carving that is more than 1,000 years old that it is alleged is not being looked after properly. A colleague of mine has written to Highland Council about it; the stone is under its care although it is your responsibility. No action has been taken in months.

Is there a concern that some of the bread-and-butter, day-to-day things—I know that these are not your responsibility—that HES is there to do, which are to protect our heritage, are not being done because there is so much going on in other parts of the organisation? Is the organisation fit for purpose in doing that primary job of protecting Scotland’s heritage?