Seòmar agus comataidhean

This morning, we heard that France, for example, does not just use vaccination passports; evidence of previous infection is also taken. It was suggested that, when making comparisons with schemes in other countries, we have to be careful how we utilise the data because it will be specific to the country. Even the Government’s evidence paper says that the impact in Israel is unclear.

The committee has heard evidence, which was alluded to by Jim Fairlie, that one of the main barriers to increasing vaccine uptake, which is what vaccination passports are being introduced to do, relates to ethnic minorities, especially our Polish and African communities, and areas of deprivation. Where is the evidence that suggests that the introduction of vaccination passports will have a positive impact on those communities, which are the hardest to reach?

The point that I am trying to make is that the Government uses the percentage of the population that is vaccinated. However, when we drill down into the figures, we find that there are high levels of vaccination among the indigenous population of Scotland—perhaps higher than we would have expected at the start—but that there are pockets in our communities in which vaccination levels are not high. My problem is that I am not convinced that you have the evidence to suggest that using vaccination passports for nightclubs or football matches will impact the people who require our attention the most. I agree that community engagement is really important, but vaccination passports will not impact those communities to the extent that you want.

To be fair, cabinet secretary, you probably will not find over-70s from the African community in nightclubs, either, but their vaccination rate is 20 per cent lower than the average. We are not going to have a meeting of minds. I do not believe that you had the evidence that you suggested you had three weeks ago. You are backfilling that evidence now to establish the need for vaccination passports. That is the point that I am making.

Do either of the other two witnesses want to add anything before I move on?

Professor Dye, would you like to add anything to that?

I will follow on from Mr Fairlie’s questions on COP26. One of the things that we learned from the European championships was that a balance has to be struck between risk and benefit. We recognise that bringing together people from different countries will significantly increase infection rate, and COP26 will be an even more significant risk, given the number of countries that are involved. Will Mr Matheson comment on the evidence on that balance between safety and benefit? Is it the Government’s intention to publish the evidence?

I will start by reiterating the concern that there has been a lack of meaningful consultation prior to the decision to implement the scheme. Witnesses have also talked about the case having yet to be demonstrated in the public domain. My concern, of course, is that the evidence does not actually exist.

Looking through some of the papers, I note that one of the biggest disparities in vaccination uptake relates to ethnicity, and that there is significantly less uptake among the black, Asian and minority ethnic community than there is among majority of our population. Do you think that that has been taken into consideration? Will the vaccination passport tackle the concern about ethnicity? My view is that the Government’s plan to increase vaccination uptake will likely incentivise only those who frequent the likes of nightclubs and football stadiums, and that it will continue to drive that inequality in our society. I ask Professor Montgomery to start on that.

I have one brief final question. The Ada Lovelace submission suggests that the Scottish Government has a responsibility to

“protect against errors, harm and discrimination”.

We all recognise that the introduction of new technology needs a lead time ahead of going live to protect against those issues and against data breaches. There is a distinct lack of time and preparation here. Should that concern us?

I put that question to Professor Montgomery, as it relates to his submission.

I have a quick follow-up question. A key element of COP26 will be the fringe events, at which delegates might interact with those who are not delegates and therefore might not have gone through that stringent testing procedure. What consideration has the Government given to putting in place safety protocols in that respect?

In a similar vein, the Scottish Government has told us that, in essence, vaccination passports are being introduced to drive people’s behaviour towards getting vaccinated. However, the hospitality sector has indicated an inequality in that respect. It is concerned that if venues offer similar services but have a different designation, the public will be driven away from places that require a vaccination passport and towards those that do not.

I will ask Mr Gowans to comment on that first, given that he was last to respond to my previous question.