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I want to look at a practical example of the idea of higher up-front costs potentially delivering a better long-term result. I cannot think of anything that is more relevant, Mr Beattie, than the food that we give to our patients. The last time I looked at the issue in any great depth, I saw that there was huge disparity among NHS boards in respect of hospitals’ ability to prepare food on site, given where we seem to be going in developing facilities that have their food prepared off site and brought in. Surely it must, given its size, be difficult to procure into the NHS locally produced and locally prepared food.

Perhaps Melanie Mackenzie can add to that. As I said, there is big variation across councils. South Lanarkshire Council is one of the councils that I have looked at. I have also looked at East Ayrshire Council, which is the gold standard; I understand that it is under real pressure to maintain that standard while balancing its budget.

Craig Fergusson mentioned the idea of maintaining a high standard of food, which, is potentially easier through a central contract. I suggest that the highest-quality food that is kicking around is produced by our own food producers. The issue is how we get it on to the plate. In terms of risk, is the ability to manage multiple contracts a real barrier to progress?

I agree that it is difficult to get evidence. I did it myself in 2016, and it took me six months to gather all the evidence together. The reality, as I said about the Excel contract, is that surprisingly little food is procured locally.

Craig Fergusson said earlier that it is easier to contract from a company such as Müller. I do not want to pick on those guys, because they could be brilliant, but it is easier for farmers to supply to Müller.

We were talking about fair trade. I am very interested in fair trade for our own food producers, who might not necessarily get the fair price that we want farmers to get. There is that extended tension.

From your perspective, how can we make sure that there is a system in place that tracks where food comes from? How do you innovate? Obviously, there is risk aversion. How do you innovate within the budget that you have?

I will go back to the issue of disparity. The last time I looked in any depth, I became aware that there are some fantastic examples. You have highlighted some of them. However, there are also examples of food being prepared and plated outside Scotland, as far away as Wales, before it is driven to our major hospitals. One of the big concerns was that the wastage level was about 55 per cent, which does not help us in the transition to net zero. I am not putting you on the spot, but we have to look at that. If we are unable to prepare food on site, we have to import it. I am concerned about food being prepared and plated in Wales then driven up the M6. How do we tackle that?

There are organisations that could well fulfil part of a contract, which means that, in order to partake in that contract, they would have to seek partners, which is not the easiest thing in the world for a small organisation to do, or they would have to make a leap, take on more of the financial risk and expand. Is there a role for the contracting authorities to split contracts in such circumstances? Of course, that would involve more work as part of the procurement process. Would that be a way of bringing more community wellbeing into contracts? I think that there is a dilemma there.

It is interesting to hear you discuss fair trade and equality. The reality is that fair trade products cost money to produce. We hold our food producers to such a high standard and we have to accept that there is a cost associated with that. I get the sense that the legislation is reasonable but that we can improve on its implementation.

I am a big advocate of local food procurement, given the positive impact that it can have across much of society in terms of community wellbeing. Should we do procurement the other way round, first looking at the outcomes that we want and how we can commission things, and then putting the procurement into practice? It seems to me that, at the moment, the pressures on councils’ budgets are having an impact on fair trade and equality. I am sure that everybody wants those things, but everybody is looking at the bottom line.

I have a quick follow-up on the point that purchasing goods in the longer term will save you money. Just to play devil’s advocate, I say that I am not sure that councils always have the luxury of being able to do that. They do not have the front-end ability to purchase goods that would give a better service and have longevity, because of two things: first, the fact that they do not have the front-end money and, secondly, the fact that they will be questioned on it. How do we get around that?

Lindsey, do you have anything to add?

Good morning, panel. I have a big interest in food procurement. On the weighting towards cost, I understand that the new legislation says that we have to take into account things such as food miles, the quality of the food and nutrition. Not doing so is a false economy.

What I find from councils is that, if there is a significant contract out there that could be split into smaller contracts, it is easier for them to outsource to one place to gather that contract together. Is that an impediment to the organisations that you represent partaking in the procurement process?

Thank you.