Seòmar agus comataidhean

That completes consideration of the instrument. I suspend the meeting until 10:40 to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

I am still concerned about the fact that you continue to talk about ring-fenced funding, because the Scottish Government is now totally responsible for budget allocation. No longer can it say that its rural funding is dependent on ring-fenced money coming from Westminster. We have seen a record increase in the block grant; indeed, I think that only once since devolution has the block grant decreased in real terms. The question remains: we are going to have a multiyear rural support plan, but is it not the case that the only way that you can expect anybody to have any confidence in that plan is by having multiyear funding?

I call Tim Eagle, with our next questions.

Cabinet secretary, although you do not have overall responsibility for NatureScot, you must appreciate that, through its licensing functions, distribution of funds and, as you have touched on, peatland and nature restoration, as well as planning and advisory roles, NatureScot is responsible for areas that affect your portfolio in sectors such as aquaculture and forestry. Therefore, NatureScot’s ability to perform will have a significant impact on your portfolio.

Given that NatureScot has had a 12 per cent cut in cash terms, or a 15 per cent cut in real terms, what discussions do you have about that with your counterpart, the Acting Cabinet Secretary for Net Zero and Energy? Obviously, that cut will have a massive impact on the ability to deliver on your ambitions.

That is really helpful. Thank you.

As members have no further questions, we move to the formal consideration of the motion. I invite Jackie Baillie to speak to and move motion S6M-16130.

Mr Burgess has indicated that he wishes to come in.

I totally agree with what Kenneth Gibson suggests about having a legislative requirement for proper co-design to be set out prior to stage 1. There should also be a requirement for the Government to respond to the stage 1 report, because that is key to answering some of the questions about the direction of travel that the Government wishes to follow in terms of policy and what the outcomes of the bill will be. The Government’s response at stage 1 is critical to our understanding of the scope of a framework bill.

As I said earlier, probably less time should be spent on scrutinising primary legislation, but it would be useful to get a clearer indication of when secondary legislation will be introduced and how it will be delivered.

Plans are made under legislation, but they are not necessarily subject to the approval of the Parliament and there is not much consistency on the requirement for that approval. For example, for the good food nation plan, the draft will be laid for 60 days, with no requirement for parliamentary approval; for the climate change plan, the draft will be laid for 120 days, with no requirement for approval; for the islands plan, it will be laid for 40 days, with no requirement for approval.

For the rural support plan, which is critical and which puts the meat on the bones of the Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill, there is no requirement for the draft to be laid in the Parliament—despite the fact that it sets out how the ministers will deliver agricultural support. The budget for that plan is £660 million and there is no requirement for the Parliament to approve that. There needs to be further investigation of how the Parliament can scrutinise at that level. The plan puts the meat on the bones of the bill, so it needs to have parliamentary oversight.

Given the pressures on parliamentary time, it may be an idea—it is certainly something that my committee has considered—for there to be a statutory requirement for Scottish ministers to publish a report that evaluates the impact of delegated powers and, ultimately, the impact of laid documents, focusing on areas in which the committee thinks that there was a lack of scrutiny.

Recently, we considered an SSI that included provision on the period of time that legislation would stay in place before being reviewed. The only thing that was called into question was the date at which the policy would end, but, to address our concerns, the Government would have had to withdraw the SSI or the committee or the Parliament would have had to vote it down, which would not have been a good use of parliamentary time. If there was a way that the issue could have been addressed, the SSI could still have been passed, without the need for annulling it and for another SSI to be introduced. Therefore, there is a case for having an effective way to amend secondary legislation, particularly given the volume that we are likely to see.

I echo much of what Kenny Gibson has suggested. We have dealt with four framework bills: the Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill; the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill; the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill; and the Wildlife and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill. Although they could all be described as framework bills, they are all slightly different. For example, much of the detail that was not in the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill or the Wildlife and Muirburn (Scotland) Bill surrounds licensing schemes and guidance, which have either been difficult for the committee to scrutinise, or it does not have a place to do so.

Kenny Gibson mentioned bill design. It is difficult if all the important policies are not in the bill when it is first introduced to the committee. For example, important policies, such as the barring of snares and additional powers to the Scottish Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals did not appear in the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill when it was first introduced. With regard to the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill, there was no proposal for a food commissioner, which was ultimately part of the bill at the end of the process. That is an important policy consideration.

In addition, it might be appropriate to say that there is no requirement for the Government to respond to a stage 1 report. For a framework bill, that response is often where the committee is able to tease out some of the policy objectives of a bill, which can assist with agreeing to its general principles, too. We have found ourselves not quite sure what all the desired outcomes for some bills would be. In one case, we did not have a Government response to our stage 1 report prior to the stage 1 debate and the Parliament voting on the general principles. Those are the areas of concern in relation to the points that you asked us to comment on, convener.