Seòmar agus comataidhean

To clarify, where does responsibility for trying to reduce that variation lie nationally? Does it lie directly with Government or would Education Scotland take the lead on that?

The concerns in the Care Inspectorate report are widespread; I am certainly not disagreeing with you in principle. I am trying to figure out whether we are in danger of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, especially given that the measure will be temporary. There are a couple more specific points that you raised that I am interested in getting clarity on. You mentioned that

“There is a real risk that without sufficient legal restrictions, Scotland is opening the door to significant numbers of cross-border placements, and to the possibility that this will be exploited by private, profit-making providers.”

My understanding is that that is exactly what is happening now, and that the regulations do not go far enough—which I think the Scottish Government itself would admit. That is why proposals on a children’s justice bill are out for consultation at the moment. Surely what is proposed in the regulations would not incentivise further use of cross-border placements. It might not reduce them by as much as we want, but it would reduce them.

For example—I recognise that you have specific concerns on this point—the regulations will give the Scottish Government the ability, through the sheriff court, to take action against a placing authority. To me, that is a disincentive. If I was an English local authority seeking to place a young person with a private provider that is based in Scotland, the potential for the Scottish Government to pursue me through the sheriff court would be a disincentive rather than an incentive.

Do you recognise that although perhaps the regulations do not go far enough, they do not incentivise further cross-border placements, but instead disincentivise them?

I am sorry to interrupt. I have huge sympathy with so much of what you have said, but I am trying to drill down and identify each point of concern. Am I right in understanding from what you have just said that you do not believe that the regulations would provide a further incentive?

Part of the question here—not all of it—is whether we will end up in a position in which, for the next two and a half years, we will continue to see a significant increase in the number of placements. Do you believe that the regulations make it more likely that we will continue to see such an increase? That is the bit that I am struggling with here. I accept that it is questionable and that we will end up facing a question of constitutional law, but given the provision that allows the Scottish Government to pursue the placing authority, in my view that is a pretty clear disincentive to an English local authority to try for a placement in Scotland. I am still trying to understand why you think that the process incentivises placement in Scotland.

Thank you—that was quite reassuring.

I have a final, brief question. You mentioned in your written submission that the use of the national outcomes in parliamentary scrutiny in Scotland was an example of good practice. I will be honest—most, if not all, of us did not think that we were doing a good job in that regard. Could you tell us what we were doing right, because we were not aware of that?

Ian Elliott, you mentioned in your submission that

“administrative leadership”

on the NPF has

“diminished over time.”

You have alluded to that already. Will you go into a bit more detail on who you are referring to and why that has been the case?

The group of individuals that Daniel Johnson and I met last week in Govan began to coalesce around the word “implicit” when we asked them about the alignment between their organisations’ strategic plans and the NPF. I will start with a relatively general question to Jennifer Wallace: is it fair to say that, at the moment, the NPF operates more like a set of general principles that shape public sector culture in Scotland than a specific set of measurable outcomes?

When leadership was there previously, where was it coming from? Did it come from the permanent secretary or from directors general?

I will stick with the question of leadership and ownership. In his submission, Max French made an interesting comparison between the Scottish model of appointing champions in the civil service for various outcomes, and the approach in Northern Ireland, where there were more-defined owners. However, he noted that there were significant levels of internal opposition in the public sector in Northern Ireland. Are those two things related?

Has the model in Northern Ireland of appointing owners, rather than champions, so that there is very direct accountability, contributed to the internal opposition, or are those unrelated issues?