Seòmar agus comataidhean

I support Katy Clark’s amendments 54 and 55. They are a simpler method of achieving something similar to my own amendments.

My colleague Russell Findlay has rightly raised the point that what started as no-fireworks zones—which are self-explanatory; there would be no fireworks—have become firework control zones. There is a lack of understanding of what they will be in practice, not only in this discussion but for communities, policing and enforcement.

My amendments in the group—amendments 120 to 123—are to an extent technical and seek to remove exemptions from schedule 1. It is another way of achieving what Ms Clark is trying to achieve. Specifically, they remove the reference to people organising public displays, which I appreciate might be controversial. However, what is the point of having a firework control zone that still has fireworks going off in it? Fundamentally, that is the question that we need to answer in this debate.

It remains the case—and a bizarre consequence of the bill if it is passed as drafted—that there will be 57 days of the year on which members of the public with a licence will be able to privately let off fireworks while, on the other 308 days, they will not be able to do so unless they employ the services of a professional fireworks company. You could argue that that is pointless, because it creates a two-tier system in which people who can afford to put on a display will use that legal loophole to do so. Equally, creating such an exemption makes a slight mockery of restricting the use of fireworks.

Therefore, I seek to remove—or at least probe the removal of—those exemptions. If the Government thinks that they should remain, I am intrigued to learn why keeping them falls within the spirit and scope of the bill that the minister is trying to pursue.

My other point concerns enforcement. My understanding is that there is not unanimous agreement that the concept of a firework control zone or no-fireworks zone is practical. In its response to the consultation, the Association of Scottish Police Superintendents made two comments that stood out to me. First, it said that no-firework areas

“will only serve to create another battleground”

where

“existing neighbour and community disputes will be fought.”

Secondly, the association feels

“in the strongest terms that this has the potential to cause significant issues.”

I presume that the association is referring to parts of the country where there are concentrated pockets of fireworks misuse.

The creation of firework control zones does not address displacement. It does not address whether people will be driven to move out of control zones into public areas, where, as Russell Findlay has stated, it is already illegal to let off fireworks. My understanding is that at the working group meetings, Police Scotland talked about some issues that it had with the concept of the zones. I do not have the minutes for those meetings; if I can source them ahead of stage 3, I will do so.

Again, no one is against the premise of the zones, but we need to be clear what they are and what they are not. For the reasons that Russell Findlay and Katy Clark elucidated, there is an expectation that, where a zone has been created, the public and those within the zone should not expect to see or hear fireworks and could rightly call the police if they did.

In my view, we will create an absolute minefield if we create these zones and then make a whole bunch of exemptions. If an application to establish a zone in a local authority were to be granted, but someone claimed an exemption under schedule 1 to the bill and proceeded to let off fireworks, it would defeat the point of the zone. That would be the case, especially if the zone was being established for good reason—for example, because it contained a community with problematic behaviour, animal sanctuaries, farms or other things for which having an exclusion zone would have practical benefits.

I like the idea of simply going back to having no-firework zones, which is what Mr Findlay is trying to achieve. The amendments in this group try to do that. It is a very useful group for us to debate.

The minister is talking about national awareness campaigns and the generality of the bill, which is fine. However, amendment 7 is specifically about firework control zones. That is a specific local issue. What the member who lodged the amendment is seeking to do is make sure that people within a local authority area are given adequate information. Amendment 7 will mandate that that happens. It has nothing to do with the national awareness campaign about the bill.

When I read the papers, it was my understanding that the order was intended simply to include so-called zombie knives, as defined, to the list of offensive weapons. However, the impression that I got from the minister’s opening statement is that this is actually a wider exercise and that there will be a more general amnesty for knives and weapons. That might not be understood outside this room. Minister, can you clarify whether we are opening up a wider amnesty for knives and weapons, in which members of the public can go to a police station with something that they think might or might not be a weapon and deposit it safely in return for a promise of no prosecution and possible compensation? The public should be aware of that.

Secondly, what public awareness work will the Government carry out to ensure that people know that that is happening?

Group 14 relates to the restrictions on days of supply of fireworks, and group 15 relates to the restrictions on days of use of fireworks. Some of the amendments are consequentials and relate to the main theme of this group but, essentially, they seek to remove the Government’s proposed restrictions on days when fireworks may be supplied.

There was a wide-ranging discussion at stage 1 about the arbitrary nature of when fireworks can be sold and by whom. There is a spectrum of views on that. There are people who want to ban the sale of fireworks altogether, for lots of reasons, and we have spoken about those. There are people who believe that restricting the sale and supply of fireworks altogether is not something that they could support. To be fair, the Government has been trying to find a middle ground throughout the process, but its proposal raises some problems.

When the House of Commons Petitions Committee reviewed the issue, one of its conclusions, notably, was that greater restrictions and controls on the sale of fireworks would not be appropriate because of the very real risk of creating a black market and making matters worse, not better. When the BFA gave evidence to this committee, it claimed that the measures will

“basically ... encourage people to source product from unlicensed or unauthorised dealers.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 23 March 2022; c 14.]

The Government’s proposal in effect shuts down those in the industry who work all year round. As we identified and spoke about at great length in our stage 1 report, two types of retailers are involved: those who are specialist fireworks retailers who sell all year round, and other types of physical retailers who sell occasionally or at different times of the year, for whom the bill may be less of a problem. The committee has to accept that, by passing the bill, we will be shutting down that cottage industry, whether we like it or not.

The industry has told us that it does not want to have to come back in a couple of years and say, “We told you so—we told you about the unintended consequences of people purchasing dangerous unregulated products from unregulated and unlicensed people.”

Questions remain over the sale of fireworks by larger retailers. I have to say on the record that none of those retailers spoke to us, which was unhelpful. Unfortunately, we do not know whether they will even bother to stock fireworks if they are limited to selling them on certain days of the year. We do not know how they will approach the issue from a staffing point of view, what training will be provided on the licensing scheme, and whether it is even worth the hassle for them. If they choose not to stock fireworks, we do not know what effect that will have on the potential for stockpiling or on the black market, whether that is online illicit sales or the scenario of a white van man selling fireworks in communities where there is problematic behaviour. We do not know whether retailers will be able or willing to store hundreds of kilograms of fireworks if they can sell only on certain days.

We do not have the answer to any of those questions, either because retailers have not been consulted or because they have been consulted and have not been forthcoming with their views. There is an explicit point of view that the proposals may lead to more injuries, which defeats the point of the bill. In effect, we are taking the ability to purchase fireworks on nearly 365 days a year and condensing that into 37 days.

With my amendments in the group, I am not saying that there should not be restrictions on the supply of fireworks, but I am asking the Government to take a step back and revisit its consultation process with stakeholders on the issue, have a proper think about the dates and make a better case as to why it has chosen particular dates. I am asking the Government to answer some of those unanswered questions and consult the people who have told us that they have not been consulted properly or that the consultation process that they have been through was “inadequate”—that is their word, not mine. The Government can then come back to the Parliament with further proposals for regulations to restrict the supply.

Before anyone claims otherwise, I point out that I am not seeking to simply remove the restriction on supply and keep the status quo, in which there is supply all year round. I understand that that would defeat the point of the bill, but that is not what I am trying to achieve. Under amendment 97, ministers would have to consult and then lay draft regulations that we could debate and discuss, and on which we could hear from stakeholders. I have suggested some stakeholders but, if members do not like that list, it is no problem to change it at stage 3. More importantly, under proposed new section 22 (5D)(c), which amendment 97 would insert, when laying the regulations, the Government would have to explain how they will improve public safety.

That is at the core of all this—we all want to improve public safety. However, there are misgivings that the proposed restricted dates in the bill will achieve the opposite. I do not know what the future holds, but I like to think that we will pass legislation that improves public safety and that does not have unintended consequences.

I am keen to hear what members and the minister have to say about my amendments. The same goes for my amendments in the next group, which is on restrictions on use, although I will make a slightly different argument on that.

I move amendment 93.

I thank the minister for the offer. I am happy to kick off the morning on a consensual note and agree to work with the minister and her team ahead of stage 3 on suitable wording for an amendment that I would be happy to move, or support, if the minister lodges it. On that basis, I seek to withdraw amendment 84.

Amendment 84, by agreement, withdrawn.

Section 14 agreed to.

Section 15—False statements

Amendment 85 not moved.

Amendment 86 moved—[Russell Findlay].

I will in a second.

The dates in the bill are permitted days on which fireworks can be used, which will not solve the problem. If somebody hears fireworks on a permitted day, they will not know whether the use is legal or illegal because they will only hear and see the fireworks. They will still be flooding our inboxes and complaining to the police.

Yes, in a moment.

Again, I am pointing to a pattern of inevitable confusion among the wider public and potential challenges to the dates. Imposing restrictive dates in the way that is being proposed may have unintended consequences, which we will not know about until they happen.

Those are only a couple of our concerns. I am happy to give way.

I have no idea how one disposes of fireworks; I am sure that we will need to ensure that there is a strong education programme for the wider public in that regard.

Equally, there are issues around whether someone is willing or able to stockpile, and how and where they do that. Most people do not do it because they do not have to. However, if we suddenly impose restrictions for use on certain dates, and a householder has, for whatever reason, maxed out their opportunity to use their fireworks, they face a conundrum as a licence holder. Do they want to do the right thing, and store the fireworks in order to use them on the next permitted date? That may not be when they originally wanted to use them, but they might use them anyway, as they have probably spent a lot of money on them.

Alternatively, are they able to return the fireworks to the store or dispose of them? If they have bought the fireworks online, are they going to phone a specialist courier company to come and get them? Those are valid questions, and—I think—sensible ones at that, to which we do not know the answer.

I see that the minister wants to intervene.

I will in a second.

All that I am asking the Government to do is to ensure that restrictions on sale are not put in place until a clear package, which the Parliament has had a chance to consider, is in place. At that point, of course, the restrictions can be put in place.

There are two simple solutions. The first is that the member presses her amendment, the committee votes on it and, if it is agreed to, the Government can tidy it up at stage 3 if it is not competent. Alternatively, the minister can give the member a commitment to take the issue away, consider whether community groups or individuals should be able to make representations to local authorities on the designation of firework control zones, and bring back an alternative proposal, in which case the member will not need to press amendment 9. The amendment raises an important point.