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In last week’s evidence session, the chair of the Parole Board for Scotland made a specific call on the Government, which I am sure that the cabinet secretary’s advisers will have noted. He said that there might be some benefit in an “independent judicial body” deciding whether it would be appropriate for the Parole Board to make decisions on temporary release. That probably falls into a conversation about the powers of ministers in relation to those of the Parole Board. Has the Government taken cognisance of that evidence, and does it plan to address it in the bill?

Is what you have just said, by its very nature, vindication that judges and sheriffs are sending people to prison on remand because of the offences that they are in front of the courts for? There is a perception—the Government is stating—that we have a high remand population. As you know, the committee previously criticised the Government for that. Is that because too many people are being sent to remand in the first place, or are they spending too long on remand? Those are two very different things, and they are dealt with very differently. The bill seems to address the latter by implying that too many people are being sent to prison on remand, rather than by addressing, perhaps, the real issue, which is not that there too many people being sent to prison on remand but that they are there for too long.

Okay. Bail-related offences are rocketing. Five years ago, they were 18 per cent; they are now sitting at 26 per cent. There is a real problem with bail-related offences, which will, I presume, only get worse if more people are on bail.

Anyway, let us move on.

I would really appreciate that and I am that sure other members would as well. If you have spotted a gap in the proposed legislation, and we can help to fill that gap, I am sure that the committee would be willing to do so in some way. That is very useful and helpful feedback.

I wanted to put a wider question to the Parole Board. You say that the ministers already have the power to effectively overrule decisions that the board makes or to decide that a prisoner may be released. There is a perception that the bill goes a little further than that. For example, measures arose during the Covid pandemic, through which decisions were made at a ministerial level to release prisoners. An explanation was provided and there was an understanding around that, although whether you agreed with it or not is another matter. However, the new rules bake that into the system. What are your wider views around that issue? Do you feel that it is appropriate? Are you comfortable with it?

Okay, but the wider question is whether those decisions are best made by the Parole Board, prison governors or ministers in St Andrew’s house?

I will come back in later, convener. I will let other members ask their questions.

They are very unwilling to go on the record and share their views with us, which is unfortunate because they are on the front line.

We went to see some custody courts in action. My personal impression—other members will have their own thoughts—is that remand is very much a last resort in those scenarios and that sheriffs explore all options. However, that does not tally with 26 per cent of our prison population being prisoners on remand. Is that because too many people are being sent to prison on remand? Are the appropriate number of people being sent to prison on remand—the public safety test has already taken place—but the length of time that cases are taking to come to fruition is such that the prison population is burgeoning? As other members have said, the problem is that we do not have the right data to work that out. That is unfortunate when we are considering a bill that will change the rules around bail. That is a comment rather than a question.

I have a final question. The Government has introduced the bill with the ambition of reducing the number of people who are remanded and not given bail in many scenarios. The financial memorandum seems to back that up with some estimates around the reduction in the number of people who will be held on remand.

Obviously, it would be beneficial for the SPS if fewer people came into the system. However, there is a school of thought among the judiciary that the bill will not make a huge difference to the decisions that it makes and that it is already making the appropriate decisions. The removal of liberty is a very serious decision that justice partners make, and although politicians are free to tinker with the rules, justice partners will still go about their business as usual.

I am unsure as to what the potential outcome of the bill might be. Have you given that any thought? Clearly, the bill will have a large implication for the prison population and its numbers. That question is directed to the SPS.

Okay.

I will reframe the question; it is relevant for both witnesses. If the Government’s intention is to reduce the remand population, there are three important ways of potentially achieving that. One is to narrow the grounds for refusing bail, which would affect the decisions that the judiciary makes. As we have heard, the remand population is quite high because of the backlog of cases and the time spent on remand, so that is an option for change. There is a middle way, which we touched on earlier, around whether the Crown opposes bail in the first place. That is the principal driver when there is a debate over whether or not bail is granted. Could changes be made by clearing the backlog and shifting the culture, procedural or otherwise, around the decision by fiscals to oppose bail?

A third and final way of reducing the remand population would be to narrow the discretion of judges and sheriffs, which would seem to be a last resort. Perhaps we need to do it the other way round: if we narrow the grounds for refusing bail first, everything else will follow.