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Do you think that the Government would do that even if a better service was being run more cheaply?

Would you be prepared to go on the record with an estimate, today?

In its evidence, the Scottish Prison Service said that a flat cash settlement would mean that it would need to revert to near-Covid-type lockdown scenarios in prison, and pretty much get rid of all the good stuff—rehabilitation and the involvement of third parties including the third sector—that ensures that people come out of prison better than they were when they went in. It said all that would cease to exist. Is that a concern?

That sounds worrying.

I want to touch on two local issues. The first is HMP Greenock. As Katy Clark mentioned, it is disappointing that there are no plans for a replacement for it. I understand that such things come at huge capital cost; we learned that the cost of HMP Highland has already nearly trebled and that costs will probably rise further. Such things tend to cost a lot more than was initially estimated, but it sounds nonetheless as though things are quite dire in Greenock. Do you have the power to shut it down? If you do not, which other agency has that power?

I will just add that, if the process is revised, it is unclear who the ultimate arbiter would be or what appeals process would be in place if, for example, organisers of such events felt that a decision had been made wrongly at local level. If there is no national consistency, how would that be presented at local level? Those issues need to be cleared up.

Good morning. Thank you for your written submission. I will start with a quotation from it, which backs up something that Teresa Medhurst told us last week. You say:

“It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that”

a flat cash settlement—I am paraphrasing—could lead to a

“rapid deterioration of safety.”

Last week, Teresa Medhurst from the Scottish Prison Service said that it would

“impact on things such as violence and vulnerability.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 2 November 2022; c 46-47.]

What exactly do you mean by your comment? How would a flat cash settlement affect the volatility of a prison?

If you were not happy with what you saw, or you felt that shutting the prison down was the best option, would you recommend that it be shut down?

I think that Rona Mackay has covered it. I did have a question about your comment about having a separate prison for those with physical medical difficulties. We saw some of that in practice when we went to Saughton, where we saw how difficult it is and how the modifications that are needed in old buildings mean that a dedicated facility might serve that purpose better. However, if we are not building prisons in Dumfries or Greenock, it is hardly likely that we will start building for specific cohorts.

That is radical.

In what respect?