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Which part of the establishment will they transfer from?

The problem is that, if the bill were passed tomorrow, we could not move those people to secure accommodation because there is no capacity. Capacity is being used up by people from authorities in other parts of the UK that are paying more. There would need to be a pretty substantial change to secure accommodation in order to accommodate that direction of travel.

I guess that I am trying to work out what the role of our young offenders institutions is, because there seems to be opposition at both ends of the argument. Some think that people who are old enough to be in adult prisons can be in YOIs but that people at the lower end of the age spectrum absolutely should not be in them at all. It is difficult to see what their place in the justice system is.

To present a scenario, is it appropriate for a 24-year-old adult male who has committed a serious sexual assault or rape to be held in a young offenders institution? Equally, is it appropriate for an 18-year-old who has committed the same offence, and is of sound mind, to be held in secure accommodation? Are you saying that it would be okay as long as they are separate from children—or from other younger children? I guess that there is a moral and philosophical question about how we treat people. Everyone is an individual, and where they are in the system is unique. I am trying to get my head round how we can use arbitrary rules to deal with quite complex individual cases.

Good morning. I thank Linda Allan for coming and for sharing her experience. It has been a horrific couple of years for you and your family, and it is brave of you to share that with the committee, because that is important. I am sorry to hear that the investigation is on-going.

I am trying to get my head round this issue. It is important that we take as wide a range of views as we can on the Government’s proposed legislation. There are three places that someone can be sent to, either on remand or when they have been sentenced to be held in custody: secure accommodation, young offenders institutions or adult prisons. I am trying to see which is the right place for certain cohorts of people.

At the moment, the decision seems to be based on an arbitrary age cut-off. The bill proposes that, up to 19 years of age—effectively, while they are still 18—someone can only be held in secure accommodation, with an expectation that they would probably then move to a young offenders institution, depending on the length of their sentence. It would be unusual for that to be so long but, in the unlikely event that it was longer than that, they would then be moved to an adult prison at some point—perhaps at the age of 25 plus.

Are you comfortable with that set-up, and does it work? Is age the factor that should be taken into account, or are there other factors? How should the Government create rules to know which settings are the right ones for the people who are put into them? I am a bit confused by some of the evidence that I have heard so far.

Perhaps Kate Wallace could start, then I will come to Ms Allan.

There has been quite a lot of criticism. It is not directed at individuals; we know that all prison officers are under a huge amount of pressure and stress. Nonetheless, there are some stark statistics on suicides among young people in custody. Do you have a view on that? Are they preventable or inevitable? Do you think that the situation could be improved but that that would require a huge amount of further investment and resource?

I appreciate that there are efforts in that respect. I have a final question, which is for Wendy Sinclair-Gieben.

That is very interesting. Much of the prison estate is very old and antiquated and is not fit for what you suggest.

Another thing that struck me was the idea that the first three months are vital and key. We have not explored that area. It is not covered in the bill as such, but the period of time when someone enters custody is vital, whether they are an adult or younger. At the moment, what is not happening when someone enters custody that should be happening? What could be done better to reduce the risk involved in those first three months?

I have one or two more questions, based on things that struck me as you were speaking. I was struck by what Katie told you about life inside a young offenders institution and the kind of people who are in there. I presume that she was talking about female inmates rather than the general population.

You mentioned the three cohorts of people who have been sentenced by a judge or sheriff for making a mistake in life. I presume that something serious would have to have happened for a custodial decision to be taken. There are people who are institutionalised, with patterns of offending, because they feel safer and more comfortable in that type of life, away from harm outside in the real world, and there are people who are very unwell. Do you mean that they have been traumatised by historical adverse experiences in life and have mental health issues?

What do you think their role is? I have grappled with that question over the past year as we have taken a lot of evidence on the issues. Do they have a role in Scottish justice?