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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 April 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

It is important that we put on record our thanks to those on the front line who deal with and manage this. It sounds like a real balancing act in some of those institutions.

That said, we have made legislative changes over the past decade. The presumption against short sentences of incarceration means that, by the very nature of our system, those who get sent to prison have been convicted of quite serious crimes. How can we achieve that balance? Do we reduce the prison population, as has been suggested, or is the answer to simply build more estate? We have not been building or replacing those antiquated buildings in a timeous fashion, and any attempts to do so have, as we know, gone massively over budget and been hugely delayed.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

What is the answer? Should we be building more prisons or putting fewer people in jail—or both?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you have any powers to direct it to be closed if you are unhappy with the conditions?

Public Audit Committee

National Strategy for Economic Transformation

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

Why is that? What red flags might we see, a couple of years ahead, of projected lower performance relative to other parts of the UK or to similar economies? For example, you say that, in a productivity comparison, we are 16th out of 38 economies, which is around midway through the pack, but clearly we could do better. What is influencing that lower productivity and growth? What analysis should be undertaken of how we could make immediate improvements? That would generate more money for public services.

Public Audit Committee

National Strategy for Economic Transformation

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

I am sure that there will be opportunities for Parliament to address those issues with the Government. Other members will probably delve into the specifics of some of those gaps.

I will conclude my questioning by making a wider point. Auditor General, you said that much of the strategy is down to prioritisation or choices. I presume that those are policy choices that are under the control of ministers. Is there an intrinsic conflict between, for example, pure economic growth and the wellbeing economy? Is it difficult for Governments to balance those two different policies? The strategies for both approaches might take them in very different directions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

That is interesting. Other pieces of legislation going through other committees are looking at the remand issue. Certainly, in any interactions that I have had with the judiciary, there is very much a feeling that remand is used as a last resort, with the presumption against releasing people when they are charged and go back to court.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

Would you recommend that if that were the case?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

Indeed. I am sure that we could have a whole session on whether public services are fit for purpose once people are released, and another one on rehabilitation and what we are doing right or not doing right in Scotland.

My final point is a grave one: deaths in custody. Across prisons and other forms of custody, it is estimated that there are around four deaths per week. Those are not solely in prisons, of course, but a worryingly large number of people are dying in the different levels of the prison estate. Is that part of your watching brief? Do you have any views on that, or have you performed any analysis of why those numbers are so high? Have you made any recommendations to the Prison Service or to ministers on how that number can be reduced?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

No, I commend you for the work that you have done. However, clearly, all that work will be made more difficult with an increasing population, an antiquated estate and the lack of resource and assistance.

Public Audit Committee

National Strategy for Economic Transformation

Meeting date: 14 March 2024

Jamie Greene

Good morning. I will start with the basics. From your briefing, it seems that Scotland has two issues: sluggish growth in gross domestic product, and low productivity. Is that assertion correct?