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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 6 November 2025
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Displaying 1737 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay. Perhaps that is something that we can follow up with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, for example, as the body that assists and represents a number of local authorities in Scotland.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you think that the industry is a bit behind the curve in that respect? Other people are already making extensive use of AI in their business processes.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Does Audit Scotland charge fees for that work?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do any local authorities in Scotland not participate in the NFI?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I was particularly struck by the second of the key messages on page 3 of your report. Perhaps I can draw your attention to the last sentence of that and ask you to explain or clarify a little bit what it means and why you have said it. In summary, you say:

“Overall, it is not clear whether underlying levels of fraud have increased since 2020/21.”

That flags up a point of concern for me, but I will give you an opportunity to clarify what you mean by that.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you add value to the work that in-house fraud teams do? I presume that the DWP has a massive fraud team, as does His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and other big bodies across the UK that manage large sums of money for large numbers of people. I presume that they have many people who sit in an office and look at fraud. What value does your small team add to any of that?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2024”

Meeting date: 26 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I am sure that, when the Auditor General comes knocking on the Scottish Commission for Public Audit’s door for more money, that will be part of his pitch.

I have one final question. Are you doing anything in relation to Covid-related fraud? Obviously, there has been a lot of noise around the potential scale, volume and value of many different aspects of Covid spending, particularly around the work of HMRC in relation to loans, grants and so on, but there may be other bodies that you do work for that have been affected by Covid fraud, to use that phrase.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 Audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 19 September 2024

Jamie Greene

I would like to close the session by picking up on an issue that I asked about the previous time that we met. Clearly, the optics are difficult. I presume that you would have preferred to have come in today to talk about the positive work that WICS does and the good work that, I am sure, your staff do, for which we should thank them. However, the media coverage and the scrutiny at the highest level—from the Parliament, the Government and the Auditor General—must be uncomfortable and difficult, and rightly so. After all, we are talking about public money.

Do you accept that the optics of all this have created the very unhelpful view that, for those at the highest level of the organisation, it has been something of a gravy train for a considerable time? Although that might have ended, it has happened, which is the problem. People have lost confidence and faith in the governance of this public body.

The second part of my question is about what happens next. Is there a case for a clear separation of the two functions—of the part that oversees a public nationalised industry such as the water industry and has a very important role to play, and the organisation’s more commercial arm, which wants to go out, wine and dine, and travel business class, because that is what commercial companies do in seeking new business opportunities? The problem that we have had until now is that combining the two and trying to pretend to be both has led us to some of these issues, as well as the governance issues, which I have no doubt individuals will have to face the consequences for. What should we do next?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 Audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 19 September 2024

Jamie Greene

What is your opinion on that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 Audit of the Water Industry Commission for Scotland”

Meeting date: 19 September 2024

Jamie Greene

You made the link. I have it in front of me.