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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 April 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

There have been penalties of around £5 million. However, a recalibration of the contract seems to suggest that GEOAmey is receiving £4 million over a number of years in payments additional to the original contracted value. Is that correct?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Wow—you are weeks away from hitting your absolute capacity. What happens when you hit that point? Do you say to the courts, “Please do not send us any more people. We cannot take them,” or do you say to ministers, “We have to start releasing prisoners”? Which of the two is preferable?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Here is what I do not understand. In your opening statement, you said that we are sending fewer people to prison each year, but the prison population is rising—it is at its highest level in nearly five years.

The Parliament has made a number of legislative changes, some of which have been mentioned, such as the Management of Offenders (Scotland) Act 2019, and there is the presumption against short-term sentences, the changes in sentencing guidelines for under-25s and a massive shift in alternatives to custody. Whatever your views on those policies—for or against—some of which were rather controversial, we have made such changes already, and yet the prison population is going up.

Are the courts simply not following the guidelines and are sending too many people to prison, or does the nature and profile of those prisoners mean that we are sending the right number of people to prison, but the Scottish Government has simply not built the capacity to deal with that?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Or, potentially, those other countries have less serious organised crime or sexual offences.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Both of which are delayed, of course.

I will wrap up my line of questioning here. Is that not part of the issue? We would not be hitting this crunch point, people would not be living in inhumane conditions, you would not be threatened with litigation, and we would not be sitting on the precipice of mass riots in our prisons if you had built the prison capacity in the first place. HMP Greenock was described by HMIP as needing to be “bulldozed”. Barlinnie was described as being at risk of “catastrophic failure”. The list goes on and on. At what point over the past decade did the Government realise that it should have built capacity and replaced those prisons way before we hit this crunch point?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

My final question may be more fundamental. What is the point of prison? Is it simply to lock people up and keep them away from the wider populace or is it to make sure that, if and when they come out of prison, they do not reoffend and they come out better people than when they went in?

I am concerned by what we have heard this morning and over the past couple of months and years. We are simply not rehabilitating people in prison. We are chucking them in there, locking them up for 23-plus hours a day, potentially breaching their human rights and then, at the end of their sentence, putting them back into society and expecting them not to reoffend. We are, clearly, failing in this.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

My question is obvious—what is the point of fining GEOAmey if you simply hand the money back?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

You can see how it looks, though. We are talking about public money and a company that paid over £1 million in dividends to shareholders. It has a stench of unfairness about it.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

In the scenario in which it walked away from the contract because it was making a loss, you would be left in quite a precarious position—how on earth would you manage prisoner transportation?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2022/23 audit of the Scottish Prison Service”

Meeting date: 2 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Those were her words.