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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

As the Public Audit Committee, we obviously have an interest in money, and I am still struggling to get my head around any comparison. I am yet to see, on paper anyway, what the prison cost to run in an average year under Serco and what it will cost to run under SPS. We do not have that comparison, which I think is unfortunate.

What we know about the figures is that the average cost per prisoner is around £52,000 a year under Serco’s direction and management. Can you tell me what that number will look like under the SPS? Is it higher or lower?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Did your directorate do any modelling of what the potential financial impact on the public purse might be? It is easy to say that we should wait and see what it costs, but that is the mop-up after. Should that work not have been done before the transfer?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Finally, I guess that what matters is outcomes. The prison is not a hotel; the issue is not just about turnover and the number of people who come through it and how much it costs to run it. What analysis has been done of what benefits may be reaped from the prison being under the control of the SPS rather than Serco? For example, what is the staff to prisoner ratio before and after the changeover? What do the reoffending rates look like? What are the rehabilitation rates? What do the drug and contraband figures look like at HMP Kilmarnock versus the average for the rest of the estate? It would be useful to see those sorts of metrics and that analysis. Have you done any of that work?

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

Thanks for the update. I will come back in later with some PFI questions.

Public Audit Committee

Expiring Private Finance Initiative Contracts

Meeting date: 6 June 2024

Jamie Greene

That gets to the nub of my question. When times are good and there is money in the bank, the Government can easily decide that, because it has the cash, it would rather fund this stuff directly either through Government borrowing or through capital that it has in reserve and that it would want to try to avoid or to minimise private investment where possible because of the repayments, interest and other costs associated with it, and that is not the direction of travel that it wants to take.

However, as you have just outlined, we are now in very different times. Constraints on capital investment mean that there is less money to go around. In that scenario, if, for example, I knocked on your door tomorrow and said, “I am happy to build a replacement for HMP Greenock or HMP Dumfries”—both of which are in desperate need of replacement—would the door be open to the models out there and could a deal be done, or is it just simply a case of the Government wanting to spend only what it has?

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Strategic Commercial Assets Division

Meeting date: 30 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Okay. In other words, you cannot backdate it. You cannot accumulate annually the—

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Strategic Commercial Assets Division

Meeting date: 30 May 2024

Jamie Greene

There is a wider question. I am looking at the major strategic investments of the past five to 10 years in Burntisland Fabrications, Ferguson Marine, Lochaber and Prestwick airport. A lot of Government loans seem to be involved in a lot of those businesses. Obviously, there are different types of investment. There will be strategic infrastructure investments and cash injections to do things and make those businesses better, but there are also straightforward cash injections.

It seems that many of those are being written off. I presume that the decisions to write off loans are political ones made by ministers. The figure for BiFab is around £50 million, there are about £45 million to £50 million loans to Prestwick and there is at least £100 million—possibly more—in loans to Ferguson. It is hard to track down the numbers but it is an awful lot of public money.

Who makes the decision as to whether loans are written off? When you look at the future strategy or the exit strategy for those businesses, is it more than likely that the loans will not form part of any takeover strategy?

10:30  

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Strategic Commercial Assets Division

Meeting date: 30 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Do you have any women in senior leadership roles in those forty positions? I just see a panel of men in front of me.

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Strategic Commercial Assets Division

Meeting date: 30 May 2024

Jamie Greene

However, the problem is that this is the groundhog day that we have all heard about before. Time after time, we have heard people sitting in committee rooms saying exactly what you have just said. They say that things are all heading in the right direction, and lots of positive noise is made, but then it all falls apart. Nobody knows why, who has bid, how much they bid or the reasons for the Government turning down bids There is a general lack of transparency around decision making about why ownership bids are refused or denied. You are advising ministers on those decisions. Is there any way in which you could increase the transparency around them?

Public Audit Committee

Scottish Government Strategic Commercial Assets Division

Meeting date: 30 May 2024

Jamie Greene

Mr Cook, did you say that you attend board meetings at Ferguson Marine?