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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 December 2024
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Displaying 1280 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Jamie Greene

James Dornan raised some important issues there. I want to carry on with that theme, and particularly A and E. As has just been mentioned by one of your colleagues, Auditor General, we are sitting at around 70 per cent of the target of being admitted, discharged or transferred for treatment within four hours. However, we know that there is a huge disparity across the country in how quickly someone will be seen, depending on where they live and the hospital that they are taken to. In NHS Forth Valley and NHS Lanarkshire, that figure is as low as 54 or 55 per cent of target, which is shockingly low. However, NHS Tayside and NHS Western Isles are at 90 per cent and 96 per cent respectively.

I can speak only from my own experiences. In my health board, my local hospital is Inverclyde royal hospital, and the figures there are quite stark. There has been an 8,000 per cent increase in people waiting in A and E for more than four hours and a huge increase in those waiting for more than 12 hours. Is there any understanding of why there are such huge health board disparities in NHS A and E waiting times?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Jamie Greene

I mention that because your report highlights that, in June 2019, 250 Scots were waiting for more than two years for in-patient treatment, and the figure has jumped to 7,100. Even just a small percentage of those people who are waiting and waiting for treatment might not make it—that is a piece of statistical analysis that one can do. As a percentage of 250, the figure would, I hope, be relatively low but, as the number waiting nears 10,000, you are talking about hundreds if not thousands of people not making it.

I guess that the point that I am raising is whether we should look at that. Could a piece of work be done on needless mortality in Scotland as a result of horrendously long waiting lists?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 12 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Do we have too many NHS boards in Scotland?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

That is the point, though. You talked about the two areas where you can get additional money. The first is via the block grant, which presumably is either money that has been pre-promised from the UK Government through top-up funding from the UK budget or Barnett consequentials due to decisions that have been made in Westminster, or block grant asks of the UK Government, which are not guaranteed to be met—the two are very different. Alongside that sit revenue projections from tax intake under devolved taxation. What happens if neither of those increases or if there is no likelihood of them increasing? For example, early projections show that the tax increases announced in yesterday’s statement are less than £100 million, so it is nominal and nowhere near enough to scratch the surface of the spending commitments—the cash spend commitments. Surely the only other option would be for portfolio increases that happen in one area to require cuts in other areas. In other words, to balance the books, the money is just shuffled around from one set of portfolios to another. Either you have new money or you are just shuffling around existing money. It is very hard to determine which it is, and I guess that that is what I am struggling with.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

You said in your last answer that the report highlights that social security spending will be £1.5 billion more due to devolved spending decisions, which again are policy decisions for policy makers. I understand that, and I am not asking for comment on the policy itself, but the facts are that they are spending more than they are getting in that portfolio. Presumably, that is unsustainable—the money must come from somewhere.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Just before I bring in Richard Robinson, I have to wonder whether we have a problem here. All the news headlines last night were about this particular policy, which I will not comment on the specifics of; however, despite all the focus on that policy announcement, we have since discovered that we do not know how much it will cost, if it is passed as part of the final budget and implemented. In fact, there is some dispute over those costs.

How can ministers stand up in Parliament or go on TV and say, “We are introducing this policy but no one has a clue how much it costs”? Any estimates that there might be—and we have heard from one independent source that it might cost £200 million to £300 million per annum—have not been fed into the budget process and therefore not been factored into the wider budget assumptions. What if you were to do that with every policy and just announced what you like? Having nothing in the small print that says, “This is how we came to that number. This is how much we as a Government know it will cost the public purse” does not feel like a sustainable way of running a budget in the long term.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Are you surprised—or, indeed, disappointed—that we do not have medium-term financial strategies from our Government? It seems to me that producing this kind of high-level strategy is a really basic aspect of the governance of public finances, but year after year, we hear these criticisms that it does not exist.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Thank you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

Just to throw a spanner in the works, some of the early analysis of yesterday’s announcement paints a bigger picture around how we get our heads around the transparency issue when ministers make announcements about new money. I was particularly struck by the summary from the Institute for Fiscal Studies. I am not sure whether you have read that yet, but it left me with more questions than answers. To summarise it briefly for the benefit of others, it paints a picture of announcements that are made on paper—by the way, this is backed up by the SPICe graphics that came out this morning—suggesting around a 5 per cent cash-terms increase or 2.9 per cent after inflation, so a real-terms increase. However, and this is key, it excludes £1.3 billion of funding that the budget documentation implies the Scottish Government still has to allocate to services this year. If that was to be taken into account, you are looking at a flat-cash settlement next year.

Where do I start with this? There is either a 5 per cent cash increase or there is not. I am of the understanding that the Government is unable to roll over money year on year, so how can unallocated money from this year be spent in next year’s budget, for example? Again, that all just raises questions about the veracity of some of the top-line figures that people are seeing in the newspapers this morning, which is why I think that it is important to dig under those figures. Do you have any view on that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Jamie Greene

You talked a little bit about the budgets for the NHS, social care and social security. We all know the direction of travel for those budgets—they are becoming an ever-increasing chunk of expenditure for the Government. Presumably, any announcement—whatever the numbers are or whether they are increases of 1, 3 or 5 per cent—will either cannibalise the wider Scottish budget and the total pie available, or is reliant on some additional cash, the value of which is unknown, although we know roughly the value of the spending commitments. You talk about balancing the books. That may be the case, but big spending announcements are being made where there is no clear, backed-up and identifiable source for how those will be funded. Are we able to follow the money, or is there still a lack of transparency and clarity?