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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 28 January 2026
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Displaying 1914 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Many thanks, Auditor General. We have a wide range of questions, so we will get straight into them.

I will kick off—perhaps I am abusing my new position of power. I am quite intrigued by your opening comments. You used a number of phrases and a lot of terminology that, unfortunately, the committee has heard before in section 22 reports, on governance instability and unacceptable levels of governance in a public body. Based on your understanding, what is the root cause of this period of instability at Historic Environment Scotland? How did it get itself into such a situation at the time of your audit?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Thank you very much for that further update. Members have questions on many of the areas that you have identified in your report, so we will come back to you on them.

Auditor General, to go back to your summation of how HES got itself into this mess in the first place, do you understand it to be twofold in nature? There are internal problems with staff turnover and leadership at the very top of the organisation but, in parallel, there is a lack of oversight from the Scottish Government, given that HES is a public body. To put that in context, Historic Environment Scotland, which employs more than 1,600 members of permanent staff and has a turnover of £140 million in just one year, is also in receipt of significant amounts of public money by way of grant funding—around £70 million in the year that the auditors identified.

The importance of the role of the body and what it does on a day-to-day basis has surely been somewhat compromised by the instability and lack of leadership. Perhaps that has led to some issues of trust in the body from the public and those it assists on a day-to-day basis.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

You may not know the answer, but is Audit Scotland aware of any other public bodies that are currently in amber or red on the RAG status list, in terms of their sponsorship?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Those are questions that we might rightly wish to ask of the Scottish Government in response to your comments. I will bring in a colleague in a second. Has Audit Scotland had any conversations with the chair or any members of the board of the agency? Presumably, the role of the board is to provide oversight of the governance arrangements, but it sounds as though there was a distinct lack of that.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Thank you for that further information. Mr Simpson has a supplementary question on this theme.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

I will pass over to Mr Beattie.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

My point is that that occurred in the absence of an accountable officer or any senior leadership in HES.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

If you are willing to do that, that would be helpful. Thank you, Auditor General.

On that note, I conclude the evidence-taking session. I thank Stephen Boyle, the Auditor General, and his accompanying officials—Lisa Duthie, audit director, and Carole Grant, audit director—for answering the committee’s questions on the section 22 report into HES so comprehensively. The committee will consider its next steps in due course.

I suspend the meeting until 11 o’clock to allow for a change of witnesses and a short comfort break.

10:53

Meeting suspended.

11:00

On resuming—

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Cairngorm Funicular Railway

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

Welcome back to the Public Audit Committee. Item 3 is consideration of our inquiry into the Cairngorm funicular railway. I extend a warm welcome to our three witnesses this morning. Nick Kempe is a campaigner and mountaineer, Gordon Bulloch is a former environmental land remediation and business turnaround manager, and Dave Morris is a Cairn Gorm and international mountain expert. All three gentlemen are members of Parkswatch Scotland. Correct me if I have any of that wrong.

Before we get into questions from committee members, I invite Nick Kempe to make a short opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Cairngorm Funicular Railway

Meeting date: 14 January 2026

Jamie Greene

You do not need to press your button. Just let the technician do that for you.