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If Pauline McNeill moved her amendments, I would have supported them. They are very well drafted, and they make a wider point. If the issue reappears at stage 3, what we need in the bill—although I agree with the minister that being overly prescriptive is probably unhelpful—is a framework for the process of establishing, notifying and so on. We still do not know how people are to apply for a control zone, who will be eligible to apply, and what we will be asking of local authorities.

We have taken away the licensing scheme from local authorities, which is probably quite helpful, given that that is an onerous, resource-heavy task, but we are now asking them to administer control zones. Cities such as Glasgow or Edinburgh, or Lanarkshire and other councils may seek to use that power, perhaps not even willingly but because they are asked to do so by people in the community.

The changes that Ms McNeill asks for are reasonable and could easily appear in the bill. We do not necessarily need to be overly prescriptive about the rules that have to apply, but I am always concerned by the notion that everything will simply appear in guidance. The rules will not only not be in the bill—they will not even be in secondary legislation. How, therefore, do we ensure that there is consistency in the look and feel of the process across local authorities and that the application rules will be fair and equal? How do we ensure that there will not be a postcode lottery and that someone who applies for an exclusion zone in one part of the country will be treated in the same light, fairly and equally, as someone in another part of the country?

It is important that the matter comes back at stage 3 in some shape or another. We can then take a view on it as and when it is presented. However, I support the premise of what Pauline McNeill is trying to achieve.

Initially, there was some confusion in England when zombie knives were added to the list, because there was a perception that the move applied to any form of serrated knife. Indeed, there was confusion among police officers, with some of the unions asking how they would go about enforcing that. For example, a person might have one of these knives at home; although the knife itself might never leave the house, it would now be an offence to have it at all. Under the definition, not only did the knife have to be serrated but it had to be demonstrated that it was to be used for an act of violence or it had to have markings on it.

I thank the minister for lodging amendment 23, which will strengthen the scrutiny process. We will support it.

Amendment 132 is a technical means to an end.

Amendment 133, which is the main amendment, does not say very much, but it is quite important. It states:

“Regulations under subsection (2) may not appoint a day for section 22 to come into force until regulations under section 24 have been laid.”

I am reliably told that that ensures that the compensation scheme will be set up and in place prior to the restrictions on the supply of fireworks. That goes back to our previous conversation about those who will be affected most.

As we know, there are a small number of specialist businesses—around 10—among around 650 known fireworks retailers in Scotland. It is fair to say that the provisions in the bill will have a substantial impact on those businesses—particularly small, family-run businesses, which have been on our high streets and in communities throughout Scotland for years, if not generations. Those are the sorts of businesses that we would expect to see on high streets. It is a given that, if we restrict the sale and supply of fireworks, which we have previously debated, those businesses will suffer immensely. It is virtually impossible to see how they could keep a shop front open and staff all year round when they are unable to sell products. The shop would be nothing more than an information centre for people to come and look at fireworks that they cannot buy. I cannot see that being feasible, and the committee has to be honest about that. We would be shutting those businesses down, so it is welcome that the Government has suggested that there might be some form of compensation.

The stage 1 report went into that issue in great detail. It said:

“the Scottish Government must commence work with the fireworks retail industry as soon as the Bill is enacted, and before the relevant provisions of Part 3 comes into force, so as to lay the groundwork for a mechanism by which those retailers can assess the likely impact to their business and seek compensation.”

Someone from one of the businesses that will be having their doors closed as a result of the legislation said to us that the policy will

“put me and other firework stores out of business.”

That is not something that we should take lightly. He went on to say:

“The public will buy online or drive down to England. This will be impossible to police.”

We have debated those points in great detail, and I am concerned that that is his view. I am concerned not just that he is losing his business, but about the effect that the policy might have on where people will go to get fireworks if he is unable to sell to them.

We have to understand that those hard-earned family businesses are people’s real livelihoods and that they have probably already suffered over the past couple of years, as many in the retail sector have. Those people are about to lose their livelihoods, and they will struggle.

The compensation process must be robust, transparent and well thought through. The Government will need to be clear about how people will be compensated, for how long, and under what metrics compensation will be given. It will need to be clear about how the amount of financial compensation will be estimated and what scrutiny will be given in that regard. Will there be a one-off payment? Will there be an annual payment? Will the compensation be based on profit, turnover or loss of earnings—or all of those? Will it relate to loss of stock, if stock is destroyed? Will it relate to the closing down of retail, the breaching of licences and leases, and all the things that people do when a Government comes along and shuts their business down?

The Government must be cognisant of all those things. It must act sensitively and respectfully, and it must be willing to put its money where its mouth is. If the Government introduces a law that shuts down an industry, it should be willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

I will make two points. First, I am unaware of Police Scotland’s response to the amendments. It would have been helpful to be aware of that, given that Police Scotland raised the issue in oral and, I think, written evidence, and members tried to propose changes. It is unhelpful that we will have to vote on the amendments today. I would like to get a feel for whether Police Scotland supports the Government’s revised approach. If we knew that, it would help with the decision-making process when we come to vote for or against the amendments.

My second point, which is more technical, is about the classification of devices. The minister might supply guidance in that regard. My understanding is that we do not want to overly penalise the use of category 1 fireworks. I think that the word “sparklers” was used, but the minister will be aware that sparklers can fall into multiple categories. A category 1 sparkler is one that is up to 7.5g; anything over that is in category 2 and will be excluded. How will that be enforced?

The same goes for flares, which come in three categories. A flare of up to 20g is in category 1, a flare between 20g and 250g is in category 2, and the biggest flares, which are between 250g and 1kg, are in category 3. There seem to be three types of device whose use is problematic in public places and specifically at football matches, demonstrations and other events. There are smoke generators, which I think are pyrotechnic articles; marine flares, which are legally purchased pyrotechnic articles; and other flares, which fall into the category of fireworks. The most commonly used flares at football games are Bengal flames, which are perfectly legal category 1 fireworks when they are up to 20g, but which can be in category 2 or above.

I want to be sure that the Government has considered all the technicalities when it comes to which fireworks are exempt and which are excluded, because it is not as simple as talking about F1, F2, F3 and so on, given the interaction between articles and their use, illicit or otherwise, in different places.

Amendment 127 seeks to insert a new part into the bill, called “Improvement of Firework Safety”. In essence, the whole bill is about improving firework safety. I am asking Scottish ministers to publish and lay before Parliament a firework safety plan, the content of which is detailed in my proposed amendment. I will run through it quickly.

Proposed new subsection (2)(a) provides for

“the development of an annual ... safety campaign”,

which will educate the public through a variety of channels about the dangers of fireworks and how they can be used safely. It is not just for those people who go through the licensing process but is much wider than that.

Proposed new subsection (2)(b) goes on to address the sale of illegal fireworks online to ensure that people who are selling or attempting to sell fireworks through non-legitimate channels are deterred from doing so. I ask the Government to work with social media companies, for example, to clamp down on or remove posts that involve illicit selling. That should also provide an opportunity to interact with young people on such platforms and to educate them accordingly.

Subsection 2(c) of the proposed new section relates to

“the provision of additional, seasonal funding to help tackle any increase in illegal fireworks”.

Specifically, that may be helpful to the emergency services, which experience peaks of problematic behaviour at certain times of the year. We know that, when the emergency services are properly funded and resourced, they do good work. Members may be aware that, last year, for example, around £20,000 of illegal fireworks were seized in the Drumchapel area just ahead of bonfire night. That is one of many examples; there were other examples in Pollokshields. It would be important as part of the safety plan for ministers to outline what funding will be allocated to the enforcement of the

“detection and apprehension of illegal fireworks”,

which is specifically asked of the Government in paragraph (d).

The next point is an interesting one. I believe that the fireworks safety plan should also include a central point of contact for reporting the misuse of fireworks. One of the big issues that the committee has raised is the inability to identify the scale of the problem and the confusion among the wider public when there is misuse of fireworks. Who should they report that to? Is it illegal, or is it just antisocial? Are calls being made to trading standards officers, to local authorities, to police or to the fire service, whether using emergency or non-emergency numbers? Some centralisation of reporting and data collection would be extremely useful and would help the Government to understand whether legislation such as this has been effective.

Paragraph (f) relates to the standardisation of

“reporting for injuries caused solely by fireworks”.

We have heard evidence throughout this process of a lack of clarity as to whether, when people present in accident and emergency units, the injury is solely related to fireworks or is part of a bigger picture. It is difficult to understand the scale and volume of injuries caused by fireworks, and some standardised reporting would be of great benefit.

Paragraph (g) asks the Scottish ministers to co-operate

“at border control for the prevention of illegal fireworks entering Scotland,”

given that we will have a different regulatory regime. That is not asking ministers to enforce things outside our jurisdiction, but there is real potential for an influx of illicit products from England and Europe. That should be part of the safety plan.

Paragraph (h) covers

“co-operation with retailers about their continued supply of fireworks,”

which is fairly self-explanatory. That provision takes into account the results of those provisions in the bill that will change the retail landscape of the sale of fireworks.

As always, there is also a provision to cover

“such other matters as the Scottish Ministers consider appropriate.”

I have created a non-exhaustive list. It will be familiar to many members: it has appeared, in parts, in the industry’s submission to the Government regarding a firework safety plan. In response, the industry has supported my amendment, saying:

“The Scottish Government has a real opportunity to not only improve fireworks safety, but to also minimise the risk of unintended consequences. By working with the industry, the message of the safe, considerate and responsible use of fireworks would be channelled through official retailers. By working with the industry, we could provide vital training to enforcement authorities on what to look for with regard to illegal storage, selling and illegal product.”

For the benefit of members and the official report, that letter is on the record.

Amendment 127 has been widely well received by the fireworks industry; it was also proposed by the industry. I have tried to remove elements of its plans that I deemed to be outside the competence of the bill or indeed the Scottish Government.

I hope that that is a sensible approach to putting on the statute books a requirement for the Government to publish a plan and lay it before Parliament for consideration—if the Government does not accept the amendment, it could come back with its own proposals at stage 3. Ultimately, the approach proposed in the amendment will produce the beneficial outcomes that we all want, many of which the bill will not produce—as we all know.

I move amendment 127.

Mr Findlay is entitled to intervene.

Good morning. We have a lot to get through today.

The amendments in this small group are technical ones that seek to improve the licensing scheme, should it proceed. Amendment 81 to section 10 would simply ensure that ministers make provision for there being paper copies of a person’s licence if, for example, it has been issued digitally. That is simply to provide for people who are unable to access, or are excluded from, the digital world. As we know, that is a common theme that crops up.

Amendments 82 and 83 are also technical amendments on that subject, but they relate to section 12 and when a licence has been revoked. Amendment 83 would require that a licence holder must return a paper copy of a licence should the licence be revoked or expire. We might come on to the length of licences.

The amendments are aimed at improving the bill by providing commonsense arrangements for issuing and returning licences. They would simply ensure that someone who should no longer have a licence could not still use a licence that has expired or use it in the unlikely event of its having been revoked.

I press on the Government the point that we want the licensing scheme to be accessible and open, including digitally, to as many people as possible. For example, in relation to Covid certification over the past couple of years, we have seen where such a system can work well and where it can go wrong.

I hope that the amendments are helpful. I appreciate that the minister will probably say that much of what is in them will be dealt with in the secondary legislation that will be introduced when the nature of the scheme has been agreed and pinned down. I respect that, but I think that it would be helpful to include my amendments to improve, where possible, the licensing scheme in advance of its production.

I move amendment 81.

I hear what the minister says about changing from the negative procedure to the affirmative, and the balanced judgment that has to be made about which process is used. However, I would question whether the affirmative procedure would have a disproportionate impact on the work of the committee or indeed on the committee’s time. I would argue that it is for the committee to decide how we use our time, and not the Government. I do not believe that using the affirmative procedure would disproportionately impact the committee. We can easily and quickly process affirmative instruments, with due process—we do it weekly.

The problem with the negative procedure, as a principle, as the minister well knows, is that it leaves little room for manoeuvre. With any form of secondary legislation, there is limited opportunity to have full and proper debate, and it is virtually impossible to consult wider stakeholders, which is why I am quite drawn to the pre-laying procedure, although I am not quite sure where that fits in with parliamentary process.

What struck me throughout our deliberations on the bill at stage 1 is that what we do in this room is often not well publicised outside it. It is only when people catch the wind of where things are heading that they get in touch with the committee and want to consult us about their concerns. That was quite apparent with the stage 1 report, when there was limited opportunity for consultation between the publication of the report and the stage 1 debate and vote in the chamber. Even on the day of the debate, people were getting in touch with members with concerns about the content of the stage 1 report. The same is true with any regulations that come before us, some of which, unfortunately, introduce a lot of known unknowns.

I will press amendment 58 and ask the committee to strengthen its scrutiny ability. If anyone on the committee feels otherwise, I would be intrigued to hear why.

On the issue of consultation, there is always the danger of starting to create lists. We have this conversation every time we do a stage 2. However, in this instance, given the specific nature of what the bill does and who it affects directly, it is entirely appropriate to hear from the organisations that I have overtly listed. It is not an exhaustive list—it is not saying that we must consult only those people. The bill will say that they “must” be consulted. The problem with leaving it open, and saying that the Government must do wide-ranging consultation, or whatever other proposal is in the bill, is that that is true only if those people are genuinely consulted. It is quite clear—it became apparent throughout stage 1—that not all of them have been consulted. In order to ensure that those people are consulted, I want them included in the bill. It is as simple as that. I do not understand why we would not want to hear from religious groups, trade bodies, charities and community groups, who are the very people who will be most directly affected by the bill. By listing those people in black and white in the bill, we will ensure that they have a voice in future secondary legislation.

I appreciate that, because I am summing up, the minister is probably unable to come back on those points. However, at any point today, the minister is welcome to intervene, and to question, agree with or disagree with what I am saying.

I listened to Katy Clark’s arguments and I am happy to support all her amendments.

I thank the minister and members for the debate. I will clarify a few points.

I probably share other members’ concerns and reservations about the nature of what amendment 46 seeks to achieve. I have problems with how the licensing scheme is proposed, but I do not have a problem with a licensing scheme per se. Therefore, I would be unable to support amendment 46.

Can the minister elicit evidence on whether anyone has been sent to prison in the past five years, say, for a fireworks-related offence? To date, what is the maximum fine that any court has issued for such an offence?