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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 4 December 2025
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Displaying 1783 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I will start by looking at some of the budgetary pressures and the scenario planning that you have done. You are quite clear in your submission that

“Due to the nature of our functions there is no or at most, very limited, opportunity to the scaling back of our operations without significant risk to health and welfare support ... reputational damage, the loss of”

services

“and risk to operational stability across the estate.”

Will you elaborate on what you mean by that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

To clarify your projections—my colleague Russell Findlay covered some of this—you modelled three scenarios: realistic, optimistic and pessimistic. Initially, I had the impression that you had modelled on the basis of a realistic outcome, but the commentary in your submission tends to lean more towards a pessimistic outcome. Where do you sit on that scale at the moment? Whether your outlook is realistic, optimistic or pessimistic, there is still a funding gap in each scenario.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I am sure that that will be noted by the Government and that you will make your case diligently.

My final point is on an important general theme. A lot of the work that the committee does is centred on outcomes for the general public, including victims of crime. Notwithstanding the evidence that we took last week, what I take from your written submissions is the warning about the risk to the victim-centred approach that your organisations currently take. Any loss of skills or expertise or staffing resource would put massive pressure on that and would perhaps undermine much of the effort that you are making to move towards a more trauma-informed practice of working.

What reassurance can you give the public that, even though you are staring down the barrel of difficult budgets over the next few years, should it transpire that you experience real-terms cuts, victims will still remain at the heart of the justice system, no matter what happens? I am sure that many people who are watching this session will be worried and concerned about the direction of travel.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I appreciate that, in your submission, you mentioned energy and food costs, but those are 4 per cent and 2 per cent of your overall budget, whereas pay is 60 per cent of your budget and therefore the lion’s share of your costs. You say that

“a flat cash position ... would require restraint on pay increases and a review of the current employee operating model.”

You suggested that neither a reduction in staff nor a pay freeze can take place, but it sounds like both would have to take place. I still do not understand what a flat cash settlement would mean for pay and staffing numbers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

It sounds as though you might not have any choice, though. You get what you get with finances for resource budgets, so it will be one or the other, will it not?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

Do you mean a strike?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

Are they able to do that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Correspondence

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I was not going to comment. However, I am currently dealing with a lot of casework from constituents who have not been released from prison, who do not have addiction issues, who are not prescribed methadone and who are waiting three or four weeks for a GP appointment.

What will happen when that five-day prescription runs out? That is the crunch point. After they pass those five days, a person’s medical issue might become an emergency. At that point, if they cannot be seen by someone and they cannot get a prescription, where do they go? My fear is that they will revert to illicit drug taking, rather than continue with a prescribed methadone programme, as they will have done while in custody.

We need more detail. As we know, the NHS runs the service; the prison service no longer provides that service. Therefore, the matter has moved from the justice portfolio to the health portfolio. The health secretary needs to respond on the issue.

Criminal Justice Committee

Correspondence

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

In addition, we could keep the Parliament’s Health, Social Care and Sport Committee abreast of what we are doing. It might be something that it wishes to consider quickly in its agenda.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

That all sounds quite concerning. It sounds as though you are saying that a flat cash settlement would lead to Covid-like conditions within the prison estate in relation to the services that could be offered. Of specific concern would be the loss of rehabilitation services, purposeful activity and interaction with other services to deal with mental health and addiction problems, for example. Would all of that activity be scaled back to allow you to simply maintain basic safety within the prison estate?

11:15