Seòmar agus comataidhean

I thank the working group for its work on a difficult and sensitive issue, not least for members who represent communities in the west of Scotland.

It is unclear from the letter what will happen next around some of the proposals. I have concerns about the suggestion that decisions will be taken at microlocal level. I also have concerns about whether local authorities will have new or specific powers in relation to marches and processions, and about what the consequences of that might be. We could have quite disparate outcomes, with certain types of marches allowed in one part of the country but not in another, for example. That would leave matters open to the vagaries of how different councils operate, depending on whether, for example, they are more member led or official led. We also need to bear in mind that councils come in different shapes, sizes and political colours.

I would like to get a bit more information, as it is a little unclear from the cabinet secretary’s comments whether he supports the proposal to give more powers to local authorities. He only says:

“I am keen to explore what, if anything, is possible and desirable”

in relation to the working group’s conclusion on that.

The cabinet secretary uses the phrase

“improvements could be best handled by local partners”,

but the letter does not state who those local partners would be and what statutory roles they would play in making decisions.

Some people are disappointed that we will not have a Northern Ireland-style parades commission. I understand that the number of parades that take place is much lower in Scotland than it is in Ireland, but the consequences are often not dissimilar.

I ask that we are kept up to date on the issue. I would find it really helpful to get from the cabinet secretary any information on the Government’s direction of travel.

Unfortunately, Covid taught us that many care homes felt like prisons for many of their patients.

We are talking about pre-budget scrutiny and, in your opening comments, you mentioned not just prisons—although we have focused our comments on them—but the wider justice sector. All areas of the justice sector face the same potential outcomes; that applies to community justice, the police, the Crown Office and other stakeholders, who are all cogs in the wheel.

If we end up with the Government finding extra money to give to some of those services, on the back of evidence that has been heard in this committee, it is likely that much of that will simply get sucked up in pay rises, because pay is the largest source of outgoings for many such organisations. Do you have any concern that, even if we are not looking at flat cash and there are some additional year-on-year rises in their budgets, all of that will indeed be sucked up through negotiations with workers, or to avoid industrial action—which there is potential for across the board—and none of the good things that any of them wants to do will happen, even given such an increase in the budget? What is your advice to Government about that?

Good morning. Thank you for your written submission. I will start with a quotation from it, which backs up something that Teresa Medhurst told us last week. You say:

“It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that”

a flat cash settlement—I am paraphrasing—could lead to a

“rapid deterioration of safety.”

Last week, Teresa Medhurst from the Scottish Prison Service said that it would

“impact on things such as violence and vulnerability.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 2 November 2022; c 46-47.]

What exactly do you mean by your comment? How would a flat cash settlement affect the volatility of a prison?

If you were not happy with what you saw, or you felt that shutting the prison down was the best option, would you recommend that it be shut down?

I think that Rona Mackay has covered it. I did have a question about your comment about having a separate prison for those with physical medical difficulties. We saw some of that in practice when we went to Saughton, where we saw how difficult it is and how the modifications that are needed in old buildings mean that a dedicated facility might serve that purpose better. However, if we are not building prisons in Dumfries or Greenock, it is hardly likely that we will start building for specific cohorts.

That is radical.

Where would all the prisoners go?

I want to bring the conversation back to the budget, as pre-budget scrutiny is the purpose of our evidence session. I refer our witnesses to the forecasting and modelling evidence that they gave in their submissions. I will start with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. In its evidence, the service states that the budget resource that it needs

“to deliver justice, tackle case backlogs, investigate COVID deaths and to maintain pay parity ... is as follows”.

From the table that you have provided, I estimate that a cumulative figure of £766 million will be required to perform those duties. A flat cash settlement would deliver £680 million. That is a shortfall of £87 million. You go on to state that that would affect your ability to meet your statutory obligations. What are your statutory obligations? What will an £87 million shortfall look like as regards your ability to deliver services?

That is important because, over the past four or so years, more than 100,000 working days have been lost due to staff absences. That it mostly to do with mental health, although it also to do with physical attacks as well, so that is clearly already an issue for staff.

Will you give me an indication of what staffing levels are like currently? What is the scale of vacancies or understaffing in each custodial institution and across the spectrum of the estate?

I struggled to find a forecast for the next couple of years in your submission, but, reading between the lines, I note that you say that, for 2023-24, you require an uplift in your budget of £40 million to maintain existing services. I presume that that is just for one year. What does the figure look like for the next couple of years over the period of the RSR? How does that equate to what you are forecasting as your budget requirements? In other words, what is your total ask of Government versus what the RSR says will be delivered, if it comes to pass?