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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1492 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I am sure that that will be noted by the Government and that you will make your case diligently.

My final point is on an important general theme. A lot of the work that the committee does is centred on outcomes for the general public, including victims of crime. Notwithstanding the evidence that we took last week, what I take from your written submissions is the warning about the risk to the victim-centred approach that your organisations currently take. Any loss of skills or expertise or staffing resource would put massive pressure on that and would perhaps undermine much of the effort that you are making to move towards a more trauma-informed practice of working.

What reassurance can you give the public that, even though you are staring down the barrel of difficult budgets over the next few years, should it transpire that you experience real-terms cuts, victims will still remain at the heart of the justice system, no matter what happens? I am sure that many people who are watching this session will be worried and concerned about the direction of travel.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I want to bring the conversation back to the budget, as pre-budget scrutiny is the purpose of our evidence session. I refer our witnesses to the forecasting and modelling evidence that they gave in their submissions. I will start with the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. In its evidence, the service states that the budget resource that it needs

“to deliver justice, tackle case backlogs, investigate COVID deaths and to maintain pay parity ... is as follows”.

From the table that you have provided, I estimate that a cumulative figure of £766 million will be required to perform those duties. A flat cash settlement would deliver £680 million. That is a shortfall of £87 million. You go on to state that that would affect your ability to meet your statutory obligations. What are your statutory obligations? What will an £87 million shortfall look like as regards your ability to deliver services?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

That is important because, over the past four or so years, more than 100,000 working days have been lost due to staff absences. That it mostly to do with mental health, although it also to do with physical attacks as well, so that is clearly already an issue for staff.

Will you give me an indication of what staffing levels are like currently? What is the scale of vacancies or understaffing in each custodial institution and across the spectrum of the estate?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I struggled to find a forecast for the next couple of years in your submission, but, reading between the lines, I note that you say that, for 2023-24, you require an uplift in your budget of £40 million to maintain existing services. I presume that that is just for one year. What does the figure look like for the next couple of years over the period of the RSR? How does that equate to what you are forecasting as your budget requirements? In other words, what is your total ask of Government versus what the RSR says will be delivered, if it comes to pass?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

The figure for next year is £40 million, and the figure for the following year will be that plus 3 per cent.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I will come back in later, convener.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

I am quoting back to you the numbers that you gave us. You said that, in year 1, you would require £190 million, in year 2, £195 million, in year 3, £192 million and, in year 4, £190 million. That is obviously way above what is on offer in the flat cash settlement.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

Indeed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

In the table, you have presented the proposed allocation as a flat cash settlement of £170 million per year for four years. On top of that, you detail the cost of various functions, the first of which is the Covid deaths investigation team. The cost of that is on top of the £170 million. When it comes to budget time, if the Government presents you with more than £170 million—between £170 million and £190 million—which of those functions will you be able to deliver and which will you not be able to deliver? I refer you to page 19 of the papers.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Jamie Greene

That is interesting confirmation. You say that certain costs will have to be met. I presume that the cost of that would be deducted from any £170 million cash settlement. For example, because you have an obligation to investigate Covid deaths, the £4.5 million cost of that would come out of the £170 million, so you would have £165 million left. If, for example, the Government gave you £175 million, once the Covid investigation costs were taken away from that, you would be back to £170 million again. That is what I am getting at.