Seòmar agus comataidhean

Thank you for inviting me to discuss the proposals for stage 1 timetabling of the National Care Service (Scotland) Bill. I will explain briefly why the Scottish Government has proposed to extend stage 1 to after the summer recess.

The bill sets out the legal changes that the Scottish Government believes are needed to strengthen and integrate social care and social work. To make that happen, we are committed to the NCS and ensuring that the Scottish ministers are accountable for delivering consistency and quality of care and support throughout Scotland that meets people’s needs.

We have heard repeatedly from people with direct experience of social care and community healthcare that the system needs to change to address standards and consistency across the country. However, it has been very clear during the bill’s stage 1 process that, in order to deliver, we need to listen to the concerns of our key partners and stakeholders—which include, but are not limited to, local government and the unions—on part 1 of the bill. I am pleased to see that we have far more consensus on parts 2 and 3, because they cover key legal changes to support Anne’s law.

To achieve the next stage of our listening process, we will continue to work in partnership with local government, the national health service and other key partners. We are further expanding our efforts with a series of engagement events across the country this summer.

If Parliament agrees to the extension of stage 1, we will use the additional time to reach consensus and compromise on the bill. We expect the details of that to be available by the end of the summer. Therefore, I cannot comment now on what that consensus might look like or what impact that might have on the bill.

Change of this scale is unique. Additional time before the stage 1 debate will allow the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government the necessary time to consider all the evidence to best inform the development of the bill.

Of course, other NCS elements will need to be adjusted for any new timetable, such as providing the committee with a draft of the charter, which I now intend to do after the summer. An extension provides an opportunity to have a more detailed and in-depth co-design process that better reflects the needs of people with lived experience.

I will provide an update in writing to the committee before the start of the summer recess on what detail we have at that point.

In addition, I want to highlight that we are not waiting for a national care service to deliver positive change in the social care sector. As a Government, we will continue to drive forward improvements across the sector, including improving terms and conditions for our valued workforce, to make the profession attractive and bring even more talent into the sector.

I think that we still need to have the power—it still needs to be possible for people to move—but it is certainly not the wholesale aim to transfer people from local authority employment into national care service employment. If any transfer happens, there will be TUPE arrangements in place. We are also mindful of the concerns that have been raised about pensions and pension rights transferring. We are certainly keen to look at that area more closely in order to give people reassurance that they will not lose out by changing their employer.

That option is in the bill. Anna Kynaston can say more on that.

Absolutely; that is the hope. I think that I will be able to give more reassurance and more clarity on what we think the costs will be.

There is a budget cycle that we will be involved in. There are negotiations and discussions going on within Government about budget at the moment.

Last year was a really challenging financial year for the Scottish Government, in that the budget was set and fixed very early on in the year, then the Tory cost of living crisis, energy costs, the increase in people’s wages and inflation meant that, very quickly—within months of that budget being set—it was worth significantly less than it had been at the time when it was set. That was hugely impactful with regard to our having to make tough decisions and work hard to rebalance that budget in-year.

We are being quicker in the negotiations this year—the same financial headwinds are not blowing at the moment—and we are working really hard across Government to make the changes as soon as possible.

Absolutely. I will say that the focus on delayed discharge is slightly unhelpful. When I think about social care, I think about the entire picture. Much as in healthcare, we need to get involved in prevention. I am sure that you agree with that.

We need to think about spending the money upstream. We need to go back to the Christie principles and think not just about the back door of the hospital—when people have reached crisis, been admitted to hospital and we are then unable to move them out of hospital. We need to think about all the things that help people to live healthy independent lives at home, with support in their own community, before they ever reach crisis point and have to go into hospital. I am absolutely certain that we can do better at that.

I think that I will be back and forward to the committee a lot; you will see plenty of me over the next wee while. I know that the subject is an interest of yours, and I am keen to find political allies in making such brave changes and investments.

I see social care not as a drain but as an investment in our society. I feel as though I have a vested interest. In particular—to go back to my being a highlander—I want to grow old in my own community. It is brutal when people have to be uprooted from their communities and go elsewhere for care at the end of their lives. I am keen for the system to work well and to deliver for its citizens, of whom I am one.

The legislation currently allows for the recognition of Scottish powers of attorney in England and Wales. Paragraph 13 of schedule 3 to the Mental Capacity Act 2005 states that

“if the correct process has been followed for the Power of Attorney to be created in Scotland, it would be legally recognised in England and Wales without the need for further action from either the Court of Protection or Office of the Public Guardian ... for England and Wales.”

Given that there is already legislation in place that provides recognition of Scottish powers of attorney in England and Wales, I am not persuaded that further legislation is the answer. However, this is about ensuring that institutions and organisations have awareness and are educated on the legal status of Scottish powers of attorney.

I would liken the debate to the debate about accepting Scottish £10 notes in England. They are legal tender, but they look unfamiliar and people are not aware of them. The point is that it is not the law that we need to change; we need to change the understanding of what the Scottish powers of attorney are and of the fact that they look just a little bit different.

We would be keen to commit to working with third-party organisations to raise awareness through publicity about the validity of Scottish powers of attorney in England and Wales rather than change the law, because the law already allows for recognition of those powers.

We expect to engage with all our key partners. We have already had a brief informal discussion with some of our local authority partners and unions, but we expect to have more formal and regular engagement with all of them in the summer.

We are also looking to set up regional opportunities for people who have an interest in the care service to gather together so that we capture the experience of the entirety of the country. As members might imagine, being a Highland MSP, I am keen to hear about the experience of social care in every part of the country as well as from each of our individual valued stakeholders.

Anna Kynaston or Donna Bell, do you want to say a little bit more about the regional engagement that is planned for the summer?

Yes, although we expect to capture the learning as we go, and we will be happy to give you an update on where we are and what the plans are before the close of Parliament and the summer recess. We want to make sure that you are aware of the work that is going on and can plan your work, because I know that the committee has a great deal of legislation going through. The bill is one of the most important things in the suite of work that I am doing, and I think that it is one of the most important priorities for the Government and Parliament, but it has to be balanced with a host of other work. We are therefore keen to keep the committee informed so that you can balance your workload.