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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 April 2025
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Displaying 1100 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

On that exact point, with regard to making decisions and the lack of evidence, you mentioned that the powers available to judges in England are different to those that are available in Scotland in relation to evidence and the ability to deal with the matter. Stuart Munro, I presume that it cannot be as simple as mapping the English system, say, on to the Scottish system without consideration of the wider powers that are available to judges. If that is right, is there a more general risk that this Parliament is being asked to legislate on cornerstones of the system without fully appreciating those wider powers, such as are available to judges in England but not to judges in Scotland?

12:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

Simon Brown, on that point, the burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond reasonable doubt, such that, if there is any reasonable doubt, the accused must be acquitted. Are you aware of any other two-verdict system in which it could be suggested that 10 out of 15 jurors would mean that the decision met that burden?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

Stuart Munro, in your opening remarks you talked about a significant judicial ruling in October that seems to have had far-reaching consequences for the court’s view of corroboration in criminal cases, such that a number of cases that would previously have had insufficient evidence might progress to prosecution. That is my reading of it, but you will tell me if I have reflected that wrongly. To pick up on your earlier comments, what impact does that decision have on safeguards, and what impact might it have on taking away what you describe as the key cornerstone of not proven?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

Good morning. I will throw this question to Sandy Brindley straight away, because that was a really important point that she just made. I will follow on from Pauline McNeill’s questioning. The uniqueness of the system in Scotland involves the three verdicts, the jury size and corroboration. If the system is not considered holistically and, in the absence of the evidence that Sandy Brindley rightly flagged in her previous answer, if the bill were to proceed with the removal of the third verdict, is there a risk of unintended consequences that would make the system unbalanced or, indeed, worse for the people who you are talking about?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

On the prosecution of murder, I recall that, in its stage 1 report, the committee recommended amending the bill to ensure that any case involving a charge of murder is still prosecuted in the High Court. However, the cabinet secretary’s letter does not indicate that the Government plans to amend the bill in that way. Do either of you take a view on that? If so, do you prefer the committee’s suggestion or the Government’s apparent direction of travel?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

That is clear—thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

Good morning. I remind the committee, witnesses and anyone who is watching of my interests, in that I am a practising solicitor and I am regulated by the Law Society of Scotland.

At stage 1, the cabinet secretary told the committee—these are my words—that the system needs to be considered holistically, such that, if you remove the not proven verdict, you need to do something with the jury size, for example. That view was reflected in Stuart Munro’s opening remarks.

Now, of course, the cabinet secretary is winding back on jury size but increasing the majority that is needed for a conviction. Michael Meehan, in the faculty’s view, does adding two to the majority provide sufficient safeguards in light of the removal of the verdict? Is there any evidence to suggest that a two-thirds majority is appropriate in a two-verdict system?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

I am, but I am speaking more widely, too. The cabinet secretary has made proposals in her letter about changing certain aspects of the bill as it was introduced. When you were looking at that, did you think, “Hang on, that will have a cost implication for our organisation or the sector more generally,” and, if so, do you think that that will be factored in by the cabinet secretary?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

I am very grateful for that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Liam Kerr

Kate Wallace, do you want to add to that?