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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 19 December 2024
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Displaying 816 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

Thanks, convener. I will be brief, with a couple of wee follow-up questions.

Good morning. This is a really helpful session. I should say at the start that I am very much in favour of the sexual offences court. Have you had any sort of pushback from victims about the idea of such a court? Will they have the choice, unlikely as it might seem, to say that they do not want to be categorised in that way by using the court?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

Is there a danger of you overthinking all this?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

That is quite encouraging, but I am sure that you understand the point that Sandy Brindley was making about agency being taken away from the victim if she is told, “Yes, you have to” or “No, you can’t”. That is traumatising in itself as, again, she is powerless.

It sounds like you understand that. An informed choice is exactly the point—it should be all about choice.

Does anybody else want to comment?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

Right. I think that the problem that we have been struggling with is the lack of evidence. You probably heard that the previous witnesses have concerns about a two-thirds majority. They think that that raises the bar for convictions, particularly in sexual offence cases, for which, as you know, the rate is very low at the moment. Is there anything to say in favour of the provisions in the bill and the proposed amendments?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

Again, with respect, we know that sexual offences are, by their nature, unique. Witnesses have told us of their terrible experiences because there is no uniformity in the way that they are treated. A sexual offences court would surely address that. Again, that is what they want.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

Has that not got to do with corroboration, which still exists despite the—

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

The Government has tried to balance the removal of the not proven verdict by moving to the two-thirds majority, as opposed to a simple majority, but in your opinion, that is not acceptable—is that correct?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

There is a bit of hypothesising going on there, but okay.

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

I fundamentally disagree with the opinion that a sexual offences court is not necessary. With the greatest of respect, we have been hearing for years about the journey of victims of sexual offences, and nothing has happened and nothing is happening. I have been on committees dealing with this for eight years, we talked about it eight years ago and the position for victims has not got better.

We are talking about a trauma-informed, specialist court that, as you probably heard our earlier witnesses say, is very much wanted by victims. I do not think that it should come down to logistics or money. If we can make it work, we should make it work. That is my view. It is necessary and long overdue.

My question picks up on something that Sandy Brindley said about her misgivings about a judge being able to decide whether a victim should have special measures and whether that should be up to the victim to decide. What are the witnesses’ opinions on that?

Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Meeting date: 4 December 2024

Rona Mackay

I want to go back to Stuart Munro’s opening argument, which was really comprehensive and which I understood. Obviously, the committee has wrestled with the issue of not having evidence for changing jury size. Am I right in thinking that, with the removal of not proven, you would prefer us to move to the English system? Is that really what you are saying?