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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 April 2025
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Displaying 909 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

No. As we approach the end of the financial year, I am always looking at how much flexibility we have. The fact that I do not have to pay back any of the £440 million—even though that is allocated—gives me a bit of leeway.

The UK Government is saying that there could well be more money. Therefore, in addition to the flexibility that I think that I have as a result of not having to pay back the £440 million, the amount of funding could also be increased. I think that that increase will be largely driven by health consequentials, with a little bit of transport consequentials as well. We then get into the territory of that discussion about whether, if that comes from health consequentials, we need to pass it on to health.

I realise that these are quite tricky conversations. Much of this will be clarified by two things. One of those things will be, as Dougie McLaren said, the spring budget revision, which is our finalised accounts for this financial year—for this budget—although there will be more to come, because there is quite a lot of late movement. The other thing will be the spring estimates.

If we already had both those aspects formalised, I could give you specific figures. However, because we are ahead of the UK Government announcement, it is very difficult for me to do so. I am getting a moving feast in relation to funding from the UK Government. That is the territory that we are in.

The bottom line is that I think that there is sufficient flexibility for me to allocate that £120 million, because I do not have to pay back the £440 million and because I think that there will be a bit more room with additional funding. In addition, we are getting to the end of the financial year and I am seeing where there might be underspends that we could use or expenditure that we could move into next year.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

Yes—of sorts. That probably demonstrates why some of this is quite challenging, because it is such a moving feast.

Obviously, in next year’s financial year, I will have to manage the spending commitments within the budget. Putting in additional funding such as the £620 million is something that we did in previous years. It is not ideal, but it allows us to say that we think that we will be able to get a particular amount of funding. It is a very prudent estimate, but it is subject to change. That allows us to maximise spending decisions. It is quite likely that, in-year next year, there will be additional one-off consequentials.

When we publish our budget, that happens at a fixed point in time, but budget management and shifts happen almost hourly. Even since 9 December, there have been shifts, so you are right to say that, since the £620 million was announced, there have been significant shifts. Some things have got better this year that have allowed us to carry forward the reserve, but some things have got more challenging for next year. I imagine that, if I came back to speak to the committee in a week’s time, other things would have changed.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

As you have said, in previous years, as soon as any suitable funding was identified, I redeployed it to new financial support schemes. Now, I would very much like to focus on economic recovery work. We have committed to spend £375 million and my commitment is to spend that £375 million on business support. Some of that will be spent on the emergency grants that are being paid out, but most, if not all, businesses—even those that have been through a challenging time—would far rather be supported to trade and operate fully than to depend on emergency grants. The commitment is that any unallocated funding will be redeployed to economic recovery.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

Yes, it will tackle those things. I am leading on the fiscal framework review for local government, and Tom Arthur will take a lead role in that. My hope is that it will sit neatly alongside the resource spending review. Certainly, my intention is to engage as comprehensively as possible with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, even in the run-up to an election. I have a commitment to work with Gail Macgregor on the fiscal framework review and the resource spending review.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

I sincerely hope not.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

We work tirelessly to ensure that our spending is effective. However, the limits make that really challenging. With six weeks or around two months to go until the end of the financial year, if my conversation with Douglas Lumsden is anything to go by, you see how moveable the parts are—and yet I need to land a £40 billion-plus budget within extraordinarily tight parameters. Inevitably, we could take more effective decisions if we were not trying to shoehorn them into arbitrary limits that do not make sense.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

That is a fair point about comparing actuals. That is the bottom line for Barnett consequentials. We do not receive what is announced; we receive what is actually spent. Therefore, we have to wait for the UK Government to know what it has actually spent—which comes very near the end of the financial year—to know what we will actually receive. By that point, we will have had to make the decisions on what we will announce and actually spend weeks or months previously.

I therefore absolutely agree that what matters is comparing actuals. You were talking about this financial year. I suppose that the Scottish Fiscal Commission ultimately has the final say on what we are allowed to actually spend. The Scottish Fiscal Commission’s view on what is actually available is therefore really the most important one.

Dougie is nodding. I do not know whether he has anything to add.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

I do not recall seeing costings.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

I was quoting David Bell—I have the quotation in front of me—who, when asked, talked about fluctuations in the oil and gas sector over the past two years. We all know that the oil and gas industry is vital to Scotland, but its value fluctuates in line with oil prices and decisions that the industry makes. Scotland is disproportionately affected by that because of the industry’s importance to the country.

I had a conversation with some well-known representatives of the north-east oil and gas industry last week. They are making an important argument, which I support, about the need for further diversification. Let us take ScotWind as an example. There is excitement about the supply chain for that because there is great talent, there are great resources and there is, in the north-east, already great investment potential for the transition.

That is already happening. Almost irrespective of what the Scottish Government is doing and has done, industry is already diversifying and considering new opportunities that are on the horizon. That is not an argument to say that there should be anything other than a just transition; I am not making that argument and have never backed it. Industry is already ahead of us in the transition.

My ambition is to grow the tax base—to grow the percentage of tax that each threshold takes—and to ensure that we are less exposed because we have diversified and invested, and have identified our strengths and backed them. I am not saying anything that the industry does not say. It is about creating more well-paid secure jobs; it is not about reducing the number of such jobs in Scotland.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 1 February 2022

Kate Forbes

Absolutely. You are right that the quality of debate was higher when we were all basically pushed to a position of ideologically considering what were the best tax options for Scotland, balanced by the need to ensure that we had a sustainable revenue stream. Ultimately, I need to ensure that there is funding to pay for the national health service and so on.

I would certainly be open to doing that; I am always open to ways of improving the budget process. One might argue that, this year, there was less need to engage with Opposition spokespeople because, in a sense, the passage of the budget bill was more secure than it has been in previous years. However, I was still very keen to have cross-party conversations, which I have had with all parties on several occasions prior to and since the introduction of the budget.

If there are ways in which we can strengthen the process—in particular, in considering tax—that will be fine. There is a constant and very live debate on whether non-domestic rates are fit for purpose and reflect the Scottish economy as it currently operates. I am sure that members round the table have different views on that. It is fair that many people ask the question, but the question that I would pose in return is to ask what would replace non-domestic rates.