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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 13 April 2025
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Displaying 909 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

We have had a debate about the best way to monitor spend. We have taken the recommendations on board and have delivered quite a number of them. We might just have a difference of opinion on how to do some of them, such as the finance recommendation, as effectively as possible. If you want to put any others to me directly, I can respond to them.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

Thank you very much—that is a brilliant question. When the NSET was published, I made the comment that, with a 10-year strategy, there were elements of risk, because none of us knew what the next year would hold. When we reflect on the past two years, we can see that there has been quite a lot of turbulence and change. There is an element of risk attached to anything that you put down in the NSET as fact. That is why it was so important, in this year’s programme for government, to refocus on what we will do in the coming year that is in the spirit of NSET.

I will ask whether any of my officials want to come in on the green industrial strategy. By the time that I came into office, the strategy was drafted and ready to go. My main changes to it were about focusing as much as possible on action. That meant taking what the green industrial strategy contained and asking, “So what?” and “What does that mean?”

My understanding of the green industrial strategy was very much that it was a prospectus approach, so its audience is those who are interested in or open to doing business in Scotland and considering making investments. It needs to sit alongside other documents. I see the NSET document as being owned by everyone, whoever you are—whether you are a local councillor, the First Minister or somebody who employs people in Scotland. It is a national document that gives us a northern light for the next 10 years.

Within that approach, we then publish more focused documents or strategies. The green industrial strategy was punchy and pointed. It was written for a potential investor audience rather than for all our other audiences, and it must sit alongside other documents.

I wonder whether somebody else wants to speak to the process or how the strategy evolved, because I was not involved.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

My portfolio—perhaps uniquely in Government—is one of the few that can generate revenue. I agree that investing through the enterprise agencies and the Scottish National Investment Bank is a means of, first, generating more medium-term immediate returns and, secondly, supporting a growing and prosperous economy more generally.

I agree with the premise that there is a difference between supporting the enterprise agencies in their current form and giving them the capital for them to be able to invest in other organisations. In recent years, Scottish Enterprise, Highlands and Islands Enterprise and the Scottish National Investment Bank have made a number of extremely good investments that have delivered returns for them. Those returns are immediate but, more generally, they are a means of delivering overall prosperity.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

I strongly believe in listening to stakeholders but also in basing policy decisions on evidence. The First Minister has said, and I repeat, that we cannot continually raise tax.

You have raised the issue of the differential, which is key in a devolved context. I point to the evidence. We know from the HMRC figures that there has been net immigration to Scotland of, on average, more than 4,000 every year since tax was devolved. The member will say that the figures do not cover this year, and he will be absolutely right—although, to be fair, he has been saying that the differential will have an impact for all the years for which we have evidence. The evidence matters.

I also point to the data that was released just yesterday on Scotland’s population: it is a matter of great encouragement that it rose faster in the year up to mid-2023 than at any time since the 1940s. National Records of Scotland said that the main driver of population growth over the period was people moving to Scotland from other parts of the UK and abroad, which, again, illustrates the fact that we have net inward migration.

We must balance all the many reasons why someone would choose to live in Scotland. Although tax clearly plays a role, people take much broader decisions in the round about the general cost of living, the resilience of our public services, the support from Government and other parts of the public sector, and the economic activity that is happening here. All those are reasons to celebrate the fact that people are choosing to move to the country.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

Michelle Thomson is absolutely right to say that the wider UK environment is a big determinant of what happens in Scotland. We know that there are challenges with productivity, which are linked to private reinvestment and investment in innovation. We want to encourage as much of that investment as possible. That is a UK-wide challenge and a UK-wide trend. How we are perceived internationally has a massive bearing on that.

I know of a number of major corporations that have previously been active in the UK but which left a couple of years ago for various reasons. When we have engaged with those corporations, they have said that they are sympathetic to what the Scottish Government is trying to do, but, at the end of the day, we sit within the wider United Kingdom, which will have a bearing on what they can and cannot do.

What Rachel Reeves does with the budget in October will matter massively in terms of incentivising the reinvestment piece. How she will use the tax system to incentivise reinvestment and how she will ensure that the UK as a whole is considered to be open for business will matter. That will work either in favour of or against what we are trying to achieve.

The other big issue is labour shortages. Today, RBS said that hiring activity has surged and that job creation has reached its highest level since May 2023. That is positive if the workforce is there, but if there are constraints on the labour market, which we know there are, employers will continue to face staff shortages. In September, 24.7 per cent of firms reported experiencing a shortage of workers, although that is lower than the average rate over 2023, which was 33 per cent.

Those macro trends and issues clearly have an impact. There has been a lot of speculation about how Rachel Reeves might adjust debt and accounting rules to allow greater capital and infrastructure investment. I would welcome such a change and the flexibility that it would bring.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

Financial transactions grew considerably under the previous Conservative Government. They were a very helpful resource for us in housing, as your neighbour on the committee, Willie Coffey, will know, and they were a means for us to significantly capitalise the Scottish National Investment Bank rapidly.

Financial transactions are a loan mechanism, as you say, so they are not capital; they must be returned to the Treasury at the right point, but they allowed us to extend the reach of our capital. Last year, they were cut—if memory serves—by over 60 per cent, which was a huge hit in one year. Taking on board that hit in one year was a mammoth task for all the housing programmes and the Scottish National Investment Bank programmes that were explicitly reliant on financial transactions. That required us to redivert capital from elsewhere to continue to support those programmes.

We do not know what Labour will do with financial transactions, and we do not know how it feels about financial transactions. It is clear that there will be more consequentials if the UK Government increases what it is doing on housing. At the end of the day, in order to capitalise the Scottish National Investment Bank we want to use capital, but there is a concern about rediverting capital from new schools, hospitals and roads to the Scottish National Investment Bank, so we will have to weigh that up.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

I do not know whether any of my officials want to respond to that. It remains our intention to return the business to the private sector. We will update Parliament at the appropriate time if a proposal is received that represents good value for the taxpayer and continues to deliver benefits to Scotland and the local economy in Ayrshire. I am conscious, in these quite sensitive periods, of the need not to say anything that jeopardises either the commercial element or overspeaks in a political context.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

Great.

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

We are still examining all options to bring forward new projects and employment opportunities at Grangemouth, entirely because of the economic impact that Michelle Thomson has just outlined. That is where the joint working between the Governments to consider viable options for the future of the site, including the feasibility of transforming it into a low-carbon fuels hub, comes in.

Along with support from Petroineos, the Scottish Government and the UK Government are very much willing to support options that will achieve the aim of trying to maintain, or almost increase, the economic activity that goes on at Grangemouth. We want Grangemouth to retain its position as Scotland’s foremost industrial site well into the next decade and beyond, and the UK Government is committed to exploring routes to supporting the next stages of all those options via the national wealth fund.

I appreciate that that is not a substantive answer on what happens next, but I absolutely share Michelle Thomson’s view that we cannot take our eye off the economic impact around labour and the support for our energy mix.

11:30  

Economy and Fair Work Committee

Programme for Government (Priorities)

Meeting date: 9 October 2024

Kate Forbes

I keep a close eye on the accounts for Prestwick airport. The most recent ones were published on 16 November 2023 and show a continued positive picture, with the airport posting a profit in 2022-23. I do not know whether we have a specific date, but the next year’s accounts are due for publication some time in late autumn.

Glasgow Prestwick has developed as a specialist airport and has carved out a niche in a competitive aviation market. I do not think that it should necessarily be competing with Glasgow; it should continue carving out that niche. We would not intervene in commercial decisions that are taken by the airport, but I would want the management to consider all potential business opportunities in order to maximise use of the airport’s assets.