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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 April 2025
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Displaying 1593 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

Mr Dey raises a very important point. That situation does not sit comfortably with any of us. None of us feel comfortable with children being deprived of their liberty in secure or non-secure settings. For some of those children, however, that is in their best interests at that particular moment in time.

I am happy to bring in Claire Montgomery in a moment. The difference between the system in England, as I understand it, and the system in Scotland is that any place where a child is placed in residential secure care is regulated by the Care Inspectorate. Not all accommodation in England, in my understanding, is currently regulated.

I know from my conversations with my counterpart in the UK Government—as I mentioned in my opening speech—that they are very much alive to the issue. Obviously, I am not here to speak for the UK Government, but they have assured me that they have put substantial investment into trying to address some of the issues such as a lack of appropriate accommodation for children and young people in England.

I will pass over to Claire Montgomery, who can talk about our plans for the care and justice bill.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

The scope of the regulations is very narrow. It is about the recognition of DOL orders in Scots law. That is the nub of the regulations.

The issues that you raise are extremely important and we will explore them through the proposed care and justice bill. We have committed to reducing cross-border placements, unless, as I have said, it is absolutely necessary for the individual child’s welfare. However, the scope of the regulations is really quite tight, with the addition of notifications from the policing authority, advocacy and so on.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

In addition to the recognition of the DOL order in Scots law, it is also about ensuring that the placing authority remains engaged with the child and has overall responsibility within law to ensure that they have all the services and support that they need when they are placed in Scotland.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

There are certainly pressures on the court in that the mechanism for approving DOLs, or recognising DOLs under Scots law, as it currently stands, was not designed for routine use; it was for exceptional use. I am not putting that in legal language—

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

We are aware that there are cross-border placements, but I do not think that the new arrangements will incentivise them. The current Scottish process provides legal recognition of the order, but the High Court does not scrutinise the order or challenge why the order was made or extended. The High Court fully owns the order and reviews the placements, and that will continue. Placing authorities will still need to apply for DOL orders, and any extension of those orders, under the jurisdiction of the High Court. The regulations provide for the recognition of those orders only for a renewable period of up to three months at a time. There will have to be a regular review of the child’s placement and whether it is still appropriate and in their best interests.

The regulations and administrative arrangements seek to better regulate cross-border placements through the information-sharing requirements that we have spoken about and through making it clear that the placing authority is responsible for the child and for the care that they get in their placement. It will incentivise placing authorities to remain fully engaged with the child’s placement and to actively safeguard the child’s welfare.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

We initially put out a call for views and held an engagement with stakeholders in January this year, to which the commissioner’s office contributed, and a summary of the stakeholders’ views was also published in March this year. It was not appropriate for us to share drafts of the regulations before sharing them with Parliament.

I am happy to hand over to Hannah Graham, who will explain the process for regulations of this type.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

The regulations give Scottish ministers the power to apply to the sheriff court for an enforcement order if a placing authority does not comply with its obligations under the regulations. The process to be followed broadly mirrors the process that would apply if a Scottish local authority was in breach of its obligation to a Scottish child when a children’s hearing had made an order. Scottish ministers would give the authority a notice of intended application by them to enforce the authority’s duty. The matter would escalate to the sheriff court only if the authority did not fulfil its duty within 21 days, as per the order that I previously referenced.

If ministers brought the matter to court, the sheriff could make an enforcement order if it was found that the placing authority was in breach of its duties under the regulations, and that order would be final. That process, if it was required, would be undertaken by ministers—who retain oversight through engagement by way of the child’s advocate—Scottish local authorities and the Care Inspectorate, all of which would be able to report concerns or worries.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

As you have said, monetisation of the placement of children is certainly a concern for the Scottish Government. As part of the care and justice bill consultation, we are looking at our current secure provision, what secure care provision we would need for the Scottish population and how that can be sustained. We need to think about how we can assist that service to be economically viable. We are alive to that and officials are working through how we can sustain provision. We will need secure care for Scottish children.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 25 May 2022

Clare Haughey

The regulations are about achieving the recognition of DOL orders in Scots law without having to go through a superior court route. They are therefore quite narrow in their intent. However, we have added on to that some additional safeguards and services such as advocacy for children.

We are currently undertaking a consultation on the proposed children’s care and justice bill, part of which will consider regulation and the role of the Care Inspectorate in secure care placements. Such issues should be examined in the consultation process; they are not within the scope of the regulations that are before the committee.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Subordinate Legislation

Meeting date: 9 March 2022

Clare Haughey

That depends on the UK Government and when it is able to—or wishes to—proceed with legislation. However, we will certainly work closely with it on the matter. There has already been a huge amount of co-operation between Scottish and UK Government officials.