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I know what the numbers are. The statistics say that the numbers are going up, but nobody can agree on whether that means that the numbers are actually going up. That is the problem. You will understand that it is really difficult to make any sense out of this when people keep talking about things that happened 10 or 15 years ago, which, frankly, is quite unhelpful in the context of where we are today.

I will move on. I want to explore the on-going work in looking for opportunities to do things more efficiently. Councillor Hagmann talked about digital and the automation of processes. As has been referenced, different local authorities are collaborating on shared services, and the third sector is perhaps more capable than local government of picking up specific activities in certain areas.

I want to draw out some specific examples. Can you share examples of good practice and quantify how much has been saved compared with the counterfactual? What work is on-going to drive more improvements in that regard? What impact can you see that having in helping to tackle recruitment challenges?

There is clearly a need for the group, and it is clear that Karen Adam has thought about the different aspects and understands what is required, so I am supportive of the group.

Thank you.

I am aware that a lot is happening there, so it is good to hear that. Martin Booth made a good point about decentralisation often being more efficient than centralisation, not least because you can get rid of an expensive corporate function that may not be adding as much value as you think it is. I totally appreciate that point. Are you comfortable that there are mechanisms in place to facilitate that sharing? I am thinking about the Improvement Service and other work that is happening. Do you feel comfortable that such sharing is part of the daily conversation and that there are mechanisms to give effect to it?

That is helpful—thank you. I knew that there must have been something there. Perhaps you or your colleagues can come back to the committee with more granularity on that. If possible, could you put numbers on the policy changes or reclassification changes, so that we can fill that out?

My next question was going to be about why the workforce figure for Dundee is down 2 per cent, when South Lanarkshire is up 5 per cent and Glasgow is up 28 per cent. However, you have answered that. It is about the reclassification of ALEOs—I was not aware that they were previously not included in the figures.

As I said, I want to explore further the points that Robert Emmott made about opportunities for improvement, removal of duplication, collaboration between councils on back-office services and duplication in the wider public sector, including, frankly, Government directorates. Is there overlap and duplication there or with other agencies? What is happening in that space? Are you comfortable that we have robust enough mechanisms to be able to share best practice, collaborate, understand and drive that as a way of working rather than that being something that we do exceptionally and when under pressure?

Okay. Perhaps the head count has gone somewhere else. Johanna, do you have any comments to make?

Absolutely—that is good.

You are absolutely right. It is all about getting into the detail and seeing where the additional head count has gone, what its purpose has been, how much of it is temporary, how much of it needs to be made permanent and, as you have said, what the increase in service provision has been as a consequence. I do not deny that there has been an increase as a result of policies elsewhere, but it is hard to focus on what is actually going on if we are looking at it all from 30,000 feet and without parsing the data and understanding the detail.

Thanks for your contributions so far this morning—it has been an interesting session. Your comments have been couched and framed in terms of the perception that reductions in head count have been making things more difficult than they might otherwise have been, but when I look at the data—and perhaps you can help me square this circle—I see that local authority full-time head count has increased by 21,000, or nearly 9 per cent, over the past five years. I just want to understand why you are talking about cuts and reductions in head count when the reality is that head count has increased quite significantly over the past few years. I do not know who wants to start with that.

That makes things even more interesting. You have just quoted concrete examples of specific departments, but if we look at the 10-year timeframe that you have talked about, we find that over the 10 years to now—that is, the third quarter of 2023—the head count is still up 13,000 on what it was in Q3 of 2013. The head count has increased over that 10-year period, too, regardless of Covid.

My second question, then, is on your comment that a lot of people were brought in to do Covid-specific stuff. Post pandemic, are those people being redeployed? Should they be redeployed? What should the position be? If the argument is that they were needed for Covid, what is the situation in that respect now that we are beyond Covid?