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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 1063 contributions

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Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

Thanks for putting that on the record.

On the penalties that the bill sets out, the fines are higher than those in Northern Ireland, but the penalties stop short of custodial sentences. What is your perspective on what is appropriate?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I will follow that up. You mentioned having consistency, which makes a lot of sense. The committee took evidence on that. However, there is also a provision for ministers to increase or decrease the size of the zone at specific locations, which obviously goes against consistency because, as soon as that provision is used, there will be inconsistency. Therefore, first, I want to understand how you would square that.

Secondly, is there value in giving comfort about prevention of misuse of ministerial power, potentially by setting out maximums and minimums, in the legislation? That would put guardrails around the size of zones going up or down.

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I want to unpick that a wee bit, as it is important for us to understand where the lines are. Let us take the example of a place of worship within the 200m zone, and let us say that there are some signs outside that talk about repenting for sins and so on. Another example might be a service with singing that is audible from outside, and the messages might or might not be deemed to be relevant to what is happening in the healthcare centre. Where would you see the line regarding such activities being?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

Thanks.

Helpfully, you have indicated that, as far as you are concerned, chaplains working in hospitals, the conversations that they have, any information that they might provide and any advice that they might give would be excluded. Is there an exemption for that and for what we have just discussed in relation to places of worship within the zone? Is that covered in the bill?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I understand that, but that is not the question. The question is about what a woman who is approaching a service to access it perceives from a distance. We have heard evidence from women that they could not even remember what was being said or what the signs were; all they heard was the noise and the activity that was going on around them. How would you make the point that women would not be impacted by noisy demonstrations with placards if they are at a distance, regardless of what they are demonstrating against?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I will raise another example, looking from the other side. At some hospital sites, in urban areas in particular, things might be visible from much further away than 200m. There might be stuff half a mile or a mile away on a block of flats that is perfectly visible. Draping banners from premises like that would be clearly outside the zone, so in theory that would not be covered. Is that correct?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

The fines that would be imposed as penalties are the same as those in Northern Ireland—although I think that our fines could go higher. What is the Government’s perspective on the type of penalties that should be applied with regard to persuading people not to further offend or not to offend at all? Is there an impact on human rights legislation? Are you walking a line on that, and how are you considering both aspects?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

Finally, in reference to the Northern Ireland experience—I think that its legislation is now in place—are you aware of any infringements that have been charged under that legislation, or has it had the intended effect of effectively preventing protests?

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I want to explore a wee bit the position on other premises within the zone and some other aspects related to that. Can you explain what the restrictions would be on what could or could not happen in places of worship within a zone? What could people say or do inside private premises within a zone? Where are the lines drawn regarding what is visible or audible from outside the premises?

10:00  

Health, Social Care and Sport Committee

Abortion Services (Safe Access Zones) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 March 2024

Ivan McKee

I want to follow up on some of the points that Ruth Maguire has been making. I am sorry to dig into this, but I think that the question whether the bill can deliver what it is required to deliver is a fundamental one, although I am bearing in mind, too, some of the other issues that it raises. Do you think that silent prayer can influence people?