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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 4 July 2025
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Displaying 842 contributions

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Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

It has been a really interesting discussion. I will more or less do a series of supplementaries and pull on some of the threads that have already been discussed. I will start with Matt Pearce. Is a fair summary of what you are saying that there is a risk of there being a bit of a top-down exercise and that we need to think about how we facilitate engagement from community organisations and whether we need to compel councils to do that? Do you agree with Stacey Dingwall that if it is passed as it is, the bill will create a set of reports, but with a danger that not much will change? Is that a fair summary?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

That makes sense.

Stacey Dingwall, could I ask you a couple of questions? I do not know whether I need to declare an interest, but I obviously have some prejudices towards small businesses, and when I was running a small business I was a member of the Federation of Small Businesses.

I was struck by a couple of things that you said, the most important of which being the point about councils not always disclosing expenditure below £50,000. Do you know why they do not? I am guessing that most of your members, if they use Xero, Sage or QuickBooks, could detail their expenditure to very small amounts of money. Is it something that councils cannot do and, if so, do they have the right systems in place? Alternatively, is it something that they will not do?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

It is very helpful. I think we should try to overcome those issues, but that is a very helpful contribution.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

This question is for Adrian Sargent. In much of what community wealth building stands for, you can see the threads of development economics. Central to that has been a focus on building actual capital—financial capital—through looking at micro-loan systems and how they can evolve and how communities can organise. Is there sufficient focus on how capital can be built? Regulation of financial providers is obviously reserved, but the level of assistance is also a factor. Could more be done to look at how to set up credit unions or organisations that use peer financing, especially commercial peer-to-peer financing? Could the question of how to provide greater assistance to the creation of those sorts of organisations be explored further?

10:30  

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

The previous witnesses touched on the fact that there are already existing levers and vehicles in this area, such as the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Act 2015 and community asset transfer, and we discussed the fact that the bill does not re-examine or tweak any of those things. Do COSLA members have any interest in how we can make the process easier, more straightforward and beneficial in the interests of community wealth building and local authorities themselves?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

Again, however, that is more an expression of hope regarding what might be in the guidance rather than a suggestion for something that might be specified in the bill.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

Thank you. I will leave it there.

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

Is it something you could look at?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

That sounds like general engagement, but I think that there is a need to really engage with the detail. I am interested in what prevents small businesses from applying for contracts, and what gets in the way of people and communities setting up businesses, which might begin as sole traders before growing into limited companies. We need to start thinking about those pipelines. Have those discussions taken place in the context of the bill? Could we go further and think about how we can bake that support into the way that government at all levels goes about its business, so that public procurement helps people to start up businesses and helps small businesses to grow?

Economy and Fair Work Committee [Draft]

Community Wealth Building (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 June 2025

Daniel Johnson

Good enterprise resource planning software should enable you to see the granular detail of what you are spending on businesses in which postcode areas, and that would allow you to aggregate and report spending on SMEs. That would probably do more than anything else to address the issue.

I have a blunt question. I am concerned about something that we have heard from the previous witnesses today and in previous meetings. What I have heard from you this morning is that the bill might require you to do an awful lot more consultation and produce more reports, but that it might not have any net effect. Is that something that you are concerned about?