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I will ask about the difference that the witnesses’ integration joint board and lead agency models can make to accountability, flexibility and joined-up services. However, rather than hear the perspective of their organisations, I ask them to give an example of how the models impact on children and families.

I will go to Louise Bussell first, please.

Ten years feels like quite a long time for a system to bed in. Is it established now, or do you need more time?

I am sorry to interrupt; it is quite awkward when we are hearing from witnesses remotely. I am keen to hear specifically about how the model helps families. You are still talking about the organisation rather than children and families.

If I were going to be gently provocative, I might say that 10 years feels like quite a long time to get to the point at which you understand that you need to support families as well as children. Am I picking you up unfairly?

So, who is responsible for an integration agreement between the two organisations? Why has it not happened?

It gives an example of the work that you are doing. What I am trying to get at—I will probably start sounding like a broken record—is what that means if, for example, I am the mother of a child who has difficulties. Do I pick up your directory and phone whichever service I think suits them, after which I will then be plugged right into it? Is that what is happening on the ground in Fife?

That was helpful. Martin, do you have any reflections on that?

I have just realised that my supplementary is a little bit co-designy. Is that permissible?

Good morning. I have found this session really useful. Colleagues have covered a lot of ground.

I take on board the points that you make about the importance or otherwise of structure. We have experience of going through health and social care integration. Reflecting back on that and looking forward to potential change that is coming, I am interested in what lessons have been learned. Some of the concerns that have been raised about the bill are around the risk of disruption of services.

From the perspective of children and families in our communities that need the services that are provided, what lessons have we learned through integration that can help us as we move forward?

Moving on to Tony Buchanan, my question is about how we protect families from risk. There will always be an element of risk with any change to services, so how do we best protect children and families as we move through the change?