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Superintendent Convery makes an important point. Some of the young people who display the most challenging behaviour in our communities, which affects those communities badly, are also some of our most traumatised young people. How important is it to find a balance there, and how can we get that right? How do we ensure that we put welfare, and a human rights approach to our children, at the centre of our system? Perhaps I can bring in Diane Dobbie on that.

I am happy with that response to my general question. I have another question to put later on, but three witnesses still want to come in on this subject; I defer to you on that, convener.

That is a very helpful overview. Superintendent Convery, do you want to come in on that and expand on the point that Niven Rennie made? How important is it that we take into account all the different factors, including child welfare, when dealing with youth offending? You probably heard Bruce Adamson in the previous session talking about taking a human rights approach.

Fergus McNeill touched on my area of questioning earlier and I know that he has been waiting in the chat to come back in, so I will give him the opportunity to do so. I completely concur with what he said about where the balance should be as we move forward to the society that we want to become.

My question for the panel, starting with Professor McNeill, is this: what impact can rehabilitation services in prisons have, whether those are services that prisons provide or those that are outsourced to third sector organisations, local authority workers or NHS workers? What impact has the Covid-19 pandemic had on that area, particularly in relation to the outsourcing of services? It is quite a broad question.

I completely agree. We send too many people to prison and there is definitely a job to be done, but I am aware that this evidence session is on the prison estate. On that basis, I want to ask Alan Staff about how the pandemic has impacted on the work that takes place in prisons—whether that is what prisons provide themselves or what is provided by external people coming in.

I know that we are running out of time. Dr Katrina Morrison and John Watt want to come in. Will you pick up briefly on my question and perhaps address the general issue—Rona Mackay raised this in relation to women’s prisons—of family contact in rehabilitation and how that can be done safely? I will not ask any further questions, in the interest of time, convener.

I have a supplementary question. We do not know exactly what the UK Government legislation will be in that area but, from our panel of witnesses last week, we heard tentative concerns about how it might be impacted by certain types of lobbying. Based on what you said, there is scope for the Scottish Parliament to go further and be more robust in the legislation that we bring out, given the concerns that have already been raised on the record and to the committee.

Sorry, convener—I have a supplementary question on a current issue in the same area.

I thank you for that response, cabinet secretary. You were pretty clear, and it was good to get that on the record.

My final question relates to a matter that affects people in my constituency and throughout the country, but particularly those in the west of Scotland, and which particularly centres around specific football games. It relates to the anti-Catholic or anti-Irish racism that is sometimes seen. I know that that can be more of a criminal justice issue and that what we see on social media and the queries that we get about it can perhaps require police action. Is education on such discrimination part of the plans that you are progressing and the action that you are taking? Education will be crucial if we are going to tackle the issue properly.

That point has been made clearly by this panel and the panel at last week’s committee meeting. It is helpful to have it on the record again.

I had a round-up question to finish on, but I think that a lot of the issues have been covered. However, I will look at a specific angle.

The witnesses have talked about those we might be able to hear from to inform the committee further, and they have talked a lot about getting in people with lived experience, which I agree is very important. The clerking teams in this and other parliamentary committees are good at ensuring that that happens in a safe space. I know that from being a member of committees in the previous parliamentary session, and I am sure that we will make that happen.

Can the witnesses expand on the value they think the committee will get from hearing from those people? The answer might seem obvious, but it would be good to get it on the record. What do you think the value of that will be for the committee in taking the petition forward?