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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 29 November 2025
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Displaying 976 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you for that clarity.

In relation to the same provision, you will be aware that concerns have been raised about the language that is used in the bill—the term “acquired gender”. We have heard robust concerns being expressed about that. Do you have any thoughts on those concerns or on the use of language? To be fair, we also heard from witnesses—in particular, academics—a couple of times that they are concerned about the use of language, but that we have to call it something. The committee has taken that on board. What are your thoughts?

11:45  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you, cabinet secretary.

Convener, I would like to ask about the three-month reflection period, but I do not know whether colleagues want to come in on the previous issue.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks, convener. I appreciate that.

The similar provision—or theme—of the reflection period, which I know you have talked about already, came out of the further consultation that you carried out. Again, we have heard in quite a lot of evidence that a reflection period is not necessary, because it is likely that trans people have been living in their acquired gender—to use the language that has been previously discussed—for most of their lives, and have been reflecting on the matter for some time. We also heard evidence that the proposed period is not enough. I know that you will say that the reason for the three-month period is, again, to strike a balance between views, but can you say a wee bit more about the Government’s justification for having a reflection period and, specifically, a period of three months?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

You or someone else on the panel will perhaps correct me, but I think that Denmark is considering removing its reflection period.

On the reflection period—I hope that I am not standing on any colleagues’ toes here, as my question goes into the age issue—some stakeholders and panellists suggested that there might not be as big a debate about the reflection period for those over the age of 18 but that, if we are lowering the age to between 16 and 18, there should be a reflection period for those under 18 from whatever age they are until they turn 18. That was suggested by one specific panel, but you will have to forgive me, as I cannot remember which one. Do you have any thoughts about having a reflection period for the 16 to 18-year-old age group that is different from that for the rest of the population?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you both for those responses. It goes without saying that members ask questions that do not necessarily reflect their views as individuals. It is important that we put the concerns that we have heard to the Government.

I will move on to questions about the requirement to be ordinarily resident in Scotland—unless someone else wants to come in on the three-month reflection period.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

The bill provides that only people who were born in Scotland or who are ordinarily resident in Scotland may apply for a GRC. We heard concerns that that might mean that people from the rest of the UK travel to Scotland to apply for a GRC. Are those concerns founded? Is there international evidence to back up or dismiss them? Given the border situation in Ireland, I hoped that the evidence that we heard last week might clear that up. However, when Senator Doherty pointed out the current differences, I realised that that was not the best example. Does the Government have other examples?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks for clarifying that. Perhaps it is not as much of a match as I first thought. I will take that one on the chin.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I want to ask about the provision in the bill to be “ordinarily resident in Scotland”. We have heard concerns that that might lead to people coming from other parts of the United Kingdom—England, Wales or Northern Ireland—to seek a GRC. I know that you have a similar provision in Ireland, although you are possibly planning to expand that. Has that been a concern? You are in a position that is similar to ours in that you share a border with another country. In your case, people would travel from north to south rather than south to north, but has that happened in Ireland, and is it a concern?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Good afternoon, senator. I have really enjoyed the session so far.

I want to ask about some specific provisions in the bill that we are considering. I will start with the requirement to live in the acquired gender for three months and the three-month reflection period. I am aware that the Irish act did not include such time periods. Was there any discussion about time periods, either before or after? Where did those discussions lead to? Was that aspect never even on the table?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 22 June 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you for explaining that, senator. My colleague Pam Gosal will ask a wee bit more about the 16 to 18 part.

On the proposal to have no requirement to live in the acquired gender for a given time or to have a period of reflection, is there any anecdotal evidence that that has been a difficulty? From what you have said to my colleagues, I understand that there is an issue with data collection in Ireland, which you have explained well. In the seven years since the act was passed, have you picked up on any information about the absence of such a requirement? Has it been called for, for example?