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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 888 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning and thanks very much for your evidence, so far.

My question is along the same lines as Pauline McNeill’s, and is about HMPs Addiewell and Kilmarnock, so a lot of it has been covered. I was looking back to 2016 and I found a question that I asked, to which the answer was that the private finance initiative payments on Addiewell were going to cost taxpayers nearly £1 billion. I assume—going back to your answer earlier—that the cost has gone up from that. It is an absolutely ridiculous amount.

Can you confirm that with RPI currently at 12.6 per cent you will be liable for something approaching 14 per cent of the cost of HMP Addiewell? On the back of what you said about HMP Kilmarnock, is it time, or are there plans afoot, to bring Addiewell back into the public sector, as well?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

The final question that I want to ask is one that I asked the previous panel and the panels last week. It is about your interlinking with the other justice agencies. You heard this morning’s evidence, and I assume that you tuned into the police’s and the fire service’s evidence last week. You all seem to say very similar things; it is a very bleak picture, and there is no getting away from that. Have you thought about how a flat cash settlement will impact on the police, the courts service—from which we have heard this morning—the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service and other criminal justice agencies? How do you take that into account in your budget considerations?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I had a supplementary to Pauline McNeill’s question, but it has partly been covered. I would still like to ask it, but I can come in later.

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

That is what I was going to ask about. You have already covered the matter, so excuse my naivety. Is there no way out of the contracts? Is that basically it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning, panel, and thanks very much for your evidence so far. I looked to ask a supplementary question earlier about Lady Dorrian’s work, which the committee is very interested in and supportive of, but it has been covered. I am actually glad that the convener did not bring me in, because I would have stepped on my colleague Rona Mackay’s toes. I wanted to clarify that point.

I have two broad questions that are not really related. First, do you have any idea what the impact might be on revenue that is raised through fees in civil court cases if the current inflationary cycle continues beyond 2023? What impact could that have overall?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

You said that the service will continue to prioritise criminal cases, and particularly the most serious ones. I think that everybody would agree with that and there would be no argument about it. That implies that the civil stuff might take more of a back seat, for want of a better expression. However, civil cases create a revenue stream for you as well. If they take a back seat but they create revenue in an already constrained budget, have you thought about how that could play out?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

My other question is about the interplay between different parts of the justice sector. I have asked previous panels about that, and we will hear later from the Scottish Prison Service, which is another key player.

When you make budget decisions and consider ideas, do you take into account some of the things that you might have heard from the police and the fire service last week—and that you might hear later from the Scottish Prison Service—to do with how everything is interlinked? If they all get flat cash settlements, how does that impact on you?

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

You described that as a low-level example, but it is a really good one. In my days as a criminal justice social worker years ago, I would be down at the courts. Police officers were often there for the whole day and they would say, “This is the third time this month that I have done this.”

Criminal Justice Committee

Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2022-23

Meeting date: 2 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I understand the penalties argument, but on reputational damage, I think that the public knowing that we were talking about billions in taxpayers’ money would negate that argument. I accept it if the cost of coming out of such a contract will end up outweighing any benefit that might be achieved. I understand that.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Pre-budget Scrutiny 2023-24

Meeting date: 1 November 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I really appreciate that response. I am conscious of the time, so I will hand back to you, convener.