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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 30 January 2026
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Displaying 1015 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Asylum Seekers in Scotland

Meeting date: 25 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I am happy with that. I know that Phil Arnold wanted to come in, but maybe we could bring him in for the next answer.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

That sounds very positive.

My final question is for the minister. Rona Mackay touched on this. Does a wee bit of work need to be done with the public on what secure care is? You, your officials, committee members and people who work in the sector know what it is, but others might have the perception that secure care represents a softer-touch approach. Anyone who has been in secure care or has dealt with it will know that the young person still very much loses their liberty, so it is not a soft-touch approach for them. We heard that again today in our private session. Secure care is definitely a lot more therapeutic and beneficial, and it seems to be the best approach for young people, but is there work to be done in communicating that to the public so that secure care is not seen as soft justice or whatever we want to call it?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks to you both.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Do we need to convey that image to the judiciary and to sheriffs as well as to the public, or do they understand that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I take this opportunity to welcome the minister and the cabinet secretary to their new positions, and I thank the minister for her statement at the start of the meeting.

I will follow on from the convener’s questions. I am very supportive of the bill, as are the stakeholders, as you will be aware. I might be jumping ahead a bit, because it makes provisions for people up to the age of 18, but I am keen to hear where the Government stands on 18 being a starting point. A lot of the evidence that the committee has heard—including the evidence that we heard privately from two individuals today, which was really powerful—is that 18 is still very young, as are 21 and 25. Do you have any thoughts on where the Government might see this going? I will come to the minister first.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 19 April 2023

Fulton MacGregor

The cabinet secretary has pre-empted my next question. In a previous session with stakeholders, we considered whether part of the answer would be for young offenders institutions to be modelled more on secure settings. I know that there would be resourcing issues, but, given that there is a very positive impression of secure care, could young offenders institutions be modelled more on secure settings? Would that be a potential answer to the question?

11:15  

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Yes—that is agreed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

On that basis, would you like there to be a change in who makes the decision? I certainly remember that the chief of the social work department or whatever in a local authority makes that decision. As I think you referred to, previously, it would not be every nine months for some of the cross-border cases; it would perhaps be every four to six weeks.

Would you like a change in who makes the decision? Obviously, there can be a lot of variance between local authorities. Should it be somebody more central, or is it more about training for local authorities?

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

I have another question for Jim Shields, before he comes in. How does the sector engage and interact with the facilities that are run by local authorities? I have not visited the one in Edinburgh that you referred to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 29 March 2023

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you, Linda Allan and Kate Wallace, for your evidence. Linda, it was very powerful when you spoke about your daughter’s description of people who she was in Polmont with. That is why it is so important that we hear that sort of evidence. As others have done, I want to put on record my thanks to you for coming forward.

I was going to say that my question is a wee bit out of left field, but it is related to what we have been talking about. As Kate is aware—she has given evidence on it—and as you might be aware, Linda, through your research, the committee is also looking at the Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill. The purpose of that bill, which is now at stage 2, is to reduce the number of people who are on remand in the first place. There is debate about whether that will work, but that is the main aim of the bill.

Kate, how does that bill overlap with this bill? With regard to the Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill, we are considering children under the age of 18 not being placed in custodial settings, so do you think that there is an overlap between the pieces of legislation? How can these two pieces of legislation work together?