Seòmar agus comataidhean

I also have questions around the national action plan, but first I thank you for those answers. I am sorry if my first question was a bit rushed; I was not expecting the convener to call me that soon. A lesson for me as a committee member is: always be prepared. [Laughter.] I thought that there was somebody else before me, but there you go.

My second line of questioning is around the second Scottish national action plan, which has been touched on already. Will it help the commission to meet its strategic priorities to promote and protect human rights? What contribution will it make to the changing human rights landscape in Scotland?

That is a very important point to make. I have a supplementary question. Do you have any idea how you will be able to measure whether there has been success, whether there have been outcomes or whether things are moving on? Have you thought about the measurement tools?

Thank you very much. I am happy with that, convener.

Good morning to the panel. My question follows on from Maggie Chapman’s line of questioning. You will be aware that the UK Government is proposing a British bill of rights and the Scottish Government has plans to introduce a Scottish human rights bill. What are your thoughts on how those might change the human rights landscape across the whole of the UK and with a particular focus on Scotland? Has your team any thoughts on how those bills might interact?

Thank you for that. Many members here share those concerns. Will you commit to keeping this committee up to date with your thoughts on and analysis of the bill as it progresses?

I will ask about one of the points that Kate Ramsden made, and perhaps Anil Gupta could refer to it when he responds to the question.

Kate, you said that folk will know that change is coming if the bill is passed, but is that the case? Is that the feeling that people have? My understanding is that the bill simply allows the Scottish Government to consult, with the possibility of change. Therefore, does some work need to be done with the workforce and people who use the services to say that change is only a possibility? You were quite definite in saying that folk believe that, once the bill is passed, change will come, rather than that change is a possibility.

Good morning. For the purposes of this particular evidence session, I refer members to my entry in the register of members’ interests—I am registered as a social worker with the Scottish Social Services Council.

The issue of integration in some form or other is nothing new, as committee members and witnesses know. It is probably fair to say that the workforce as a whole would not be overly happy about it, but that is beside the point of whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.

I agree with the comments that have been made so far—I think that we need more information. I can probably guarantee that this is not the Government’s intention but, in a bill of this size, it feels a bit like the issue has been added on in a “We’ll deal with that later” way, which is not a great place to be, because we do not have enough information.

What more can be done at this and future stages of the consultation to make sure that people who work in the sector and use the services can have their say on what the positives and the negatives might be? In your respective organisations, how can you make sure that you get that information out to the people who work in the sector, so that we can get that feedback and see how we can move forward collaboratively?

As Lynsey Smith pointed out, there probably are advantages to the inclusion of justice social work. We do not want to fragment the social work workforce if other aspects of social work are moving over, and there is also a lot of health overlap. However, the same argument could be made that, if we were to take the responsibility out of local authorities and lose the link with, for example, housing, which is also very important, it would almost be a case of taking with one hand and losing with another. The joined-up working needs to work anyway, regardless of where justice social work is situated, whether that is with local authorities or with the new national care service. How do we get the workforce to be involved and engaged in the process?

I have an issue to raise on that point, so my question ties in nicely with Pauline McNeill’s line of questioning.

I have had contact from local police officers this morning. They know about this evidence session and they made what was almost a plea. They know that resources are tight and that things will be difficult, but they are making a plea in relation to going to court; they think that the effect of the pilot could be massive due to the amount of time that they spend in court being “huge”—that was the exact word used in the text. I suppose that it is a plea about the pilot somehow being sped up and improved, which the officers on the ground think could be game changing in respect of freeing up resources.

The police officers asked me to raise two specific issues; the other issue is not quite as related to Pauline’s point but also relates to police time. They feel that they are spending a lot of time covering for the ambulance service just now. We know the pressures that it is facing.

Those are the issues that I was asked to raise today. I appreciate that the point about time in court has already been answered, so I do not need a further response on that. It is more a plea—if we could get the pilot sped up, it could be good for everybody in the justice system as a whole.

Thank you.

I turn to Kate Ramsden and Anil Gupta. On the basis of what has been said, what could the committee ask of the Government in that regard? Would it be helpful for the Government to provide more information on what is proposed or are you, as organisations, happy for it to be more of an abstract concept just now and to have a full consultation at a later date? Does the justice social work aspect need to be taken out of the bill and dealt with completely separately? Those are devil’s advocate questions, but I want to put them out there.

I hope that I can help you out with that, convener, because instead of seeking a response to a particular question, I want to make a point on the back of my colleague Collette Stevenson’s question.

I chair the Parliament’s cross-party group on social work. About a month ago, the minister Kevin Stewart was in front of us for what was, I have to say, a very good session on the national care service, and he took a range of questions from people across the social work sector who were excited or were anxious about the proposals. It is up to you, convener, but if it would be helpful, I can make the minutes of that meeting available—they are available anyway—to committee members and witnesses today.