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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 888 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee [Draft]

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 11 January 2023

Fulton MacGregor

On a point of order, convener. Although Dr Graham was happy to answer it, I am not sure that my colleague Russell Findlay’s question to her was appropriate. The committee often hears from people who are councillors or who work with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and therefore have specific party allegiances. I have not formed my discourse on this point, but I am not sure that that was an appropriate line of questioning or build-up to the question. I therefore seek your advice or that of the clerk.

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

It is good to have that clarified, and it brings me to my final question about the important linkages that you have talked about. I welcome the fact that justice and children’s care services are in the same bit of the bill, because the linkages between them are really important—probably more so than the linkages between justice and adult services.

You have brought me on to the housing issue. That obviously will not be coming over to the national care service, because a massive link between it and justice is required and it is probably one of the biggest areas of concern that we hear about. However, the minister has answered what I was going to ask. I was going to ask him whether he had thought about how housing services and other local authority services would work with the national care service, and he has answered by saying that there would be strong links.

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I am sorry if I took a bit longer than I should have, convener.

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I appreciated your attendance at that cross-party group meeting. A lot of the social work front-line staff who spoke at it were from adult care services. Having worked in that area, I have spoken to a lot of justice and children and families social workers over the past wee while, and I have found that there is trepidation. However, that is nothing new. As we have spoken about in this committee, the issue of justice social work coming into the health service was raised a long time ago—it was not popular at that time and was resisted. I just wanted to put that out there.

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

My question follows on from Katy Clark’s line of questioning and from something that you said earlier in response to the convener. You said that the Cabinet will decide at some point whether justice social work services will move over to the national care service. I want to clarify something that you might have already answered. Were you talking about a decision to move services over or a decision to consult on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks, minister. I do not doubt your commitment. For the record, we very much have to have an open discussion about doing that, because it might be the best way.

That brings me on to my final line of questioning, which is about what the benefits might be of those services going over, and how they might go over. In the document, justice and children’s services are two very separate things. However, just now, they work very closely together. Is it the Government’s intention that both would go over, or is it possible that children and families would go over but not justice? What are the thoughts around that? Do they both need to go or not to go?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

I hope that you are not too tired after last night, minister.

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thank you for clarifying that. You will know that that is not a particularly popular idea in the areas of justice and of children and families—I am talking about those two areas and not about adult social work. People want the Government to take them along.

If the Government and Cabinet have decided that that transfer is a good idea but the consultation gets a load of responses that are not in favour of it, how much will that weigh on the final decision about the legislation?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

Thanks, convener. I was not expecting to get back in, so I appreciate that.

How will you capture the lived experience that you have spoken about, minister? I think that the Government is doing a fantastic job with the adult social care part of this. I have seen a lot of the work that you are doing, and lived experience is coming through loud and clear in relation to that. We heard a lot about that at the cross-party group meeting that you referred to earlier.

However, do you have any thoughts—we are coming to the end of this session, so you might have to write to us about this—about how to hear about the lived experience of criminal justice service users and their views on whether they like the services just now or whether they would like the workers who support them to be part of a national care service? I know that you spoke about an individual and the 15 folk who are involved in supporting him. Do you have any ideas about how, on a larger scale with justice service users, you might do what you are doing now with adult social care service users?

Criminal Justice Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 December 2022

Fulton MacGregor

That is reassuring.