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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 26 April 2025
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Displaying 888 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

I have one more question, convener, if that is okay.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

I must apologise in advance, cabinet secretary. Because of the fullness of your answers so far in this evidence session, I run the risk of asking you questions that might prompt you to repeat yourself.

You have talked a lot about the various opinions on juryless trials, and we have seen a variety of opinions among victims who have experienced the court process. When you assess the pilot—assuming that it goes ahead—what weight will you give to such questions? The people in the pilot will not have had experience of a jury, but will you be making some comparisons to identify those areas where victims and witnesses felt that one system was better than the other? I ask that, because one of the victims said that they would prefer to have a number of people involved in their case instead of just one. How will that be filtered into the review of the pilot?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

That is no problem.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

Okay.

I have a final question. To clarify, the Government’s position is that removing the not proven verdict is tied—for want of a better word—to jury sizes. That is the Government’s clear view. There is not an option to remove the not proven verdict and keep the jury size as it is, for example.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

Given that there is more work to be done around the modelling of the pilot, which you have articulated well, and given all the factors involved, will there be an opportunity, assuming that the bill is passed, for all stakeholders—those who are supportive and those who have expressed concern—to come together to find a pilot process that at least tries to meet some of those concerns? Can the bill be amended to make that point and ease some of the concerns, given that there seems to be a 50:50 split on the proposal, even in Lady Dorrian’s review group?

It feels as though single-judge trials could work and could be good, but perhaps the period between the passing of the bill and the implementation of the pilot should be seen as an opportunity to bring people together. Indeed, the bill says as much just now, and the defence lawyers and other folk who have raised concerns could have an opportunity to engage at that point. Have you thought about that? Could that be done?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

Good morning to you and your officials, cabinet secretary. I had questions on the link between the removal of not proven and the jury changes that are being proposed. However, you have given a good account of that, and the Government’s thinking on it is now a wee bit clearer in my mind.

We have heard some evidence that the changes to the majority will make convictions more difficult. I know that you and your officials will have heard that evidence. Not everybody who has been in front of us has said that, but a large body of evidence says that removing not proven and bringing in the jury changes will make it more difficult to get convictions in such cases. What is your and the Government’s response to the issues that have been raised? What is your thinking? Do you, too, believe that to be the case, or are you confident that it would not be the case?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 7 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

I accept that. Finding that balance is a very difficult job for the Government and the committee. Obviously, concerns have been raised that getting convictions under the system could be more difficult. Is there anything built into the bill that would review whether the approach is working, getting convictions has become more difficult, or the approach is leading to more miscarriages of justice or whatever? Is anything built into the bill to review the legislation if it is passed?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

Okay, thank you.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

I am trying to make this clear for myself. The main issue for you and your association is the seriousness of cases, not the ability of a single judge. It is about the seriousness of the consequences and you believe that a jury is more likely than a single judge to provide a fair trial for the accused.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 6 February 2024

Fulton MacGregor

I wanted to come on to discuss the pilot, as others have done. As a number of people have pointed out, the Government papers refer to the proposal as a “pilot”, but you are right to say that, if it takes place, it will be very real for complainers and the accused. The recommendations do not suggest that either the accused or the complainer should have any say on whether they should be part of the pilot. That is not to say that that will not be the case, but we do not have the details. Focusing on complainers—as it is a victims and witnesses bill that we are considering—what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that the victim or complainer at the trial—or even the accused—should have a say on that?