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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 25 November 2024
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Displaying 1736 contributions

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Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Absolutely. As I said, we have a cap in place at the moment. We do not have any businesses that are in support at the overall cap, which is just over £500,000. After that, there is tapering, at the level of 5 per cent, that applies to businesses that are in receipt of funding of more than £130,000 and 85 businesses are impacted by that. That is where things stand at the moment.

10:15  

As we transition, we will set out more information. We would not change the cap or the taper or introduce front loading or redistribution without discussing that with the people who would be impacted. We would have those discussions before bringing forward such proposals.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Sorry. I used the figure of 3 hectares because that size was previously a determining factor for such support. It is not a case of my thinking being that someone who farms less land than that is a small producer and someone who farms more than that is a large producer. Obviously, it is not as simple as that, as you said.

This is about our enabling, through our measures, small producers and businesses to be supported, because we recognise how vital they are. I do not know whether John Kerr wants to come in with more information on that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

It is not possible for me to set out a timescale today. I hope that, in relation to the route map, I have been able to outline where we can expect to see changes and transition, but we still need to take forward that overall conversation.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Absolutely, and not least because we would have to undertake all the relevant impact assessments in relation to that as well. We would need to evaluate the system that has been in place to see whether it has worked and to make sure that we have the evidence base for any decisions on that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

We are considering the recommendations that have come from the DPLR Committee. I know that there were a few areas—well, another area—as well as that. Of course, we will consider that, as we will consider this committee’s recommendations, too.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

What do I think about providing more of that information? It is always challenging because, as we have touched on today, in relation to some of that information, whatever we put in the bill will not be as flexible and adaptive. Throughout this period of transition, we are very much in a space where we need the ability to be flexible and adaptive. We started this discussion by talking about sustainable and regenerative agriculture. We need flexibility to look at that, because there is not one hard definition that we would be able to put in the bill. We need to be able to bring forward a basket of measures that can be used to support our producers, more than anything else, and to highlight what we mean, and we think that the code of practice is the best way to do that.

Again, I understand the criticisms that there can be, but we have tried to share our thinking as much as possible. The process is slower in its nature because co-development takes time. It takes more time for us to get it right and I appreciate that that can be frustrating for people, given the point that we are at with the bill and the need to know the detail of what future schemes will look like. That is why we have tried to articulate that as clearly as possible, at least when more information and detail becomes available. We are committed to working with people, because we want to make sure that, ultimately, we get the policies right.

In some of the other areas that you have talked about, such as emissions and biodiversity, we have statutory targets, as I have touched on, and more could well be coming down the line. That, of course, shows why we need to be flexible, so that we can take those things into consideration.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

Set parliamentary procedures are obviously in place in relation to affirmative and negative instruments for the committee’s consideration.

As we have done in relation to some of the other developments that we have announced—for example, the whole-farm plan and the suckler beef scheme and attached conditions—we have set out in the route map when we will be making more information available and the process towards reaching that. We have set that out in the route map and in some of the information in relation to that that we have published already. This year, we have said that we will be setting out more information in relation to what will be considered in the enhanced tier of the framework; however, the secondary legislation would not be coming forward until 2025, by the time that it is enacted. I do not know whether Andrew Crawley wants to come in on that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

In relation to the important point that Andy made, I highlight that we have used either way provisions for previous instruments that we have brought to the committee. I am not aware that we have had any particular issues in relation to that. We have used such powers before.

As Andy outlined, negative instruments tend to be used for the more technical parts. We feel that those provisions in previous legislation have operated quite well—certainly, the committee has not raised concerns about that.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I hope that you will refer to the bill as a good example in the future, but time will tell.

As I outlined in my response to the previous question, it is all about transition for us: everything is not suddenly going to change overnight, with cliff edges in relation to it. Of course, we will need to introduce SSIs, not least for some of the conditions that we will introduce next year. There will then be secondary legislation that will enable us to bring forward the enhanced tier of the framework, which is expected to be in place in 2026, and the SSIs will be introduced in 2025. It will be a phased process because of the timescales that we have set out.

The SSIs are also phased, because we need to be able to undertake the work on the relevant tiers of the framework. It is critical that we get the phasing right—not least for the committee—but I appreciate your point.

Rural Affairs and Islands Committee

Agriculture and Rural Communities (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 21 February 2024

Mairi Gougeon

I return to the point that it is in our best interests to ensure that what we bring forward is consulted on and developed in that way. Subsection 26(6) of the bill sets out that point in relation to the consultation.

To go back to the start, the code of practice is a basket of different measures, in which sense it will not be prescriptive. Perhaps we are not articulating how it will be used in the best way, but it is about the support. It is critical that we try to outline the general understanding of what those terms mean in the code of practice.