Seòmar agus comataidhean

I thank committee members for their comments on the amendments. I would agree with quite a lot of what has been said, overall.

It may be helpful, first, to set out the rationale for adopting the approach to the objectives that we did. Then I will turn to each of the amendments that have been lodged.

We published our vision for agriculture in 2022, and we developed it through extensive discussions with our core rural partners. That vision has extensive and broad support, and it sets out a route and an approach to rural Scotland that I think we all want to see.

In its purpose and objectives, the bill seeks to systemise the vision into clear strategic objectives. That was the result of considerable thought, to ensure that clear principles were applied in legislation in a way that would enable flexibility to deliver them.

I agree with the intentions behind some of the amendments in this group—for example, on some of the things that we have talked about today, such as soil health and new entrants. However, the objectives are designed not to list all possible priorities, but to be broad enough to cover a wide range of matters through the high-level wording, including issues that may emerge in the future.

There are some points that members have made that I am happy to welcome, but I ask members to bear in mind the process, which has involved key rural partners, and the strategic approach that has led us to our drafting. Although many of the amendments are well intentioned, some of them are not necessary.

I turn to Colin Smyth’s amendment 92, which seeks to create a purpose section at the beginning of the bill. Again, although the amendment is well intentioned, it is an unnecessary addition, because the bill as drafted already makes it clear that ministers must use their powers to meet the policy objectives, which will be further drawn out through the rural support plan. As we have set out a range of high-level objectives, I do not consider that we need a purpose section on top of that.

The main purpose of the bill is set out in the first paragraph. The bill does more than enable support for farmers, but the proposed purpose section is silent on support for rural communities. I do not think that that is the right approach, even if we needed a purpose section. Accordingly, I ask the committee not to support amendment 92.

I turn to Emma Harper’s amendment 93. I am proud to say that it is recognised globally that Scottish agriculture produces high-quality output. I understand that some might think that the amendment would add an unnecessary point of clarification in a Scottish bill, but setting that marker for the high-quality and regenerative future of our industry is positive, so I am happy to support amendment 93.

Beatrice Wishart’s amendment 96 seeks to remove the second overarching objective from section 1(b), which concerns the

“production of high-quality food”

and replace it with a reference to

“sustainable and high-quality agricultural and food production”.

The first objective, in section 1(a), is the

“adoption and use of sustainable and regenerative agricultural practices”.

Therefore, to a certain extent, the amendment would replicate the first objective and is unnecessary. It is also unnecessary to expand the second objective in the way that is proposed, because the reference to “high-quality food” is intended to encompass the good practices that Government expects in the production of food that might be supported under the terms of the bill, and that includes with regard to sustainability. I ask the committee not to support amendment 96.

Rhoda Grant’s amendment 20 and Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 97 seek to amend the overarching objective on high-quality food in section 1(b), so that, for the purposes of agricultural production under the act, the objective would include “food security”, under amendment 20, or the

“protection and preservation of food security”,

under amendment 97. Food security is, of course, a hugely important issue, and the Scottish Government established a food security unit last spring. That was based on the recommendations of the short-life food security and supply task force that we established together with our food and drink industry.

Although I agree with the overall sentiment behind amendments 20 and 97, I do not believe that section 1 is the right place for them. Agriculture and food security are linked, but they are not synonymous. I am more minded to support amendment 47 from Emma Harper, which is proportionate and balanced because it recognises the clearer link with rural support plans. It demonstrates our commitment to food security on the one hand, but it recognises on the other that agricultural policy on its own cannot deliver food security. For those reasons, I ask the committee not to support Rhoda Grant’s amendment 20 or Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 97.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 94 seeks to amend the second overarching objective set out in section 1(b) to remove the reference to “high-quality”. That would mean that, for the purposes of agricultural production under the act, the objective would be the production of food. Although I understand and appreciate the explanation that Rachael Hamilton has offered, the Government is committed to maintaining Scotland’s reputation for producing and manufacturing high-quality food and drink. The second objective supports that continued aim, and we want to continue to have a focus on support for high-quality produce. Accordingly, I ask the committee not to support amendment 94.

I am happy to have a further discussion with Rachael Hamilton on that issue, but I cannot commit to what such an amendment might look like, because I would have to consider any potential implications.

I disagree with Rachael Hamilton’s point about the explanation being woolly, because we have high standards when it comes to cross-compliance and the statutory management requirements that we have in place. Broadly, if people comply with the high, rigorous standards that we have in place, that will meet the definition of high-quality food. I am more than happy to have a conversation with Rachael Hamilton, but I ask the committee not to support amendment 94.

Colin Smyth’s amendment 95 would change the second overarching objective, set out in section 1(b), so that, for the purposes of agricultural policy under the bill, the objective would be

“the production of high-quality food and other farm products using sustainable and regenerative agricultural practices”.

The amendment is unnecessary because other products in production are included in schedule 1 to the bill, and how we want them to be produced in return for support can be covered in regulations. Food production is the core purpose of agricultural policy and I am keen that we keep that focus. Therefore, I ask the committee not to support amendment 95.

Rhoda Grant’s amendment 21 would add to the second overarching objective of agricultural policy, set out in section 1(b), which concerns the production of high-quality food. It would mean that, for the purposes of the bill, there would be an additional objective of

“access to locally produced food for every person in Scotland”.

We are absolutely committed to ensuring access to quality local food through our good food nation vision. The first draft national good food nation plan acknowledges that there is a great deal of interest in local food and in using public procurement as a tool to support the ambition for Scotland to be a good food nation. The work to achieve the aims of the amendment fits better with the purpose of the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022 and our on-going work on the national plan.

Amendment 21 would also extend the purpose and objectives of the bill beyond agricultural policy. It is the Government’s objective to enable access to locally produced food for every person in Scotland, but it does not seem right to make that the objective of agricultural policy. Therefore, I ask the committee not to support amendment 21.

That is what I meant when I said that I absolutely understand and appreciate where you are coming from with amendment 26. I am more than happy to have a further conversation about the issue, but, because all the powers that would be required to meet that objective do not necessarily rest with the Scottish Government, I am not in a position to support amendment 26.

Rhoda Grant’s amendment 27 seeks to add an objective to provide further support to people involved in small-scale production and crofters. I agree that the bill will be improved by adding a new objective of agricultural policy providing support for diversity. I note that amendment 48, in the name of Ariane Burgess, has a similar purpose and is more comprehensive in that regard. Therefore, I ask the committee to support amendment 48 and not amendment 27.

We will discuss that in relation to the amendments in the next grouping. I do not want to pre-empt that discussion, because I know that there are a lot of amendments on the issue and I want to make sure that we look at it holistically. I want us to be able to have that full discussion so that we end up in a place where the rural support plan is able to deliver what we all hope and expect it to.

I understand that amendments 189 and 190 require the Scottish ministers to lay a report on food security before the Parliament. Amendment 189 requires a report with statistical data across five food security themes every three years, and amendment 190 requires a report with information on supply chain disruptions and Government actions to address them every year.

As we have heard from members, food security is a hugely important issue. I absolutely recognise that, not least because of the threats that we now face, including the impacts of Brexit and the on-going impact of the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia. In response, this Government, as I have outlined, undertook to act on a range of recommendations that came forward as a result of the work that we have done with the food security and supply task force, which we co-chaired. That led to establishing a food security unit in the Scottish Government.

I appreciate why Beatrice Wishart has sought to replicate the provisions in the United Kingdom Agriculture Act 2020 on reporting on food security. Of course, I would be happy to replicate that in full if Scotland was independent, had control over all the levers and had access to the sort of information that the UK act requires and that contributes to food security. I offer Beatrice Wishart assurance that we co-operate closely with the UK Government and other devolved Governments in providing data on those matters for the purposes of the UK food security report, where that information is held. Officials and I continue to seek to ensure that Scotland has access to Scotland-level data, where that is available. However, where it is not, amendment 189 as drafted would require us to meet reporting measures that we simply cannot meet, which would not be appropriate.

Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 190 is slightly less onerous in what it would require us to report on, but it creates more of an unhelpful timeline. Moreover, it asks Scottish ministers to explain how they will resolve potential disruptions to the food supply chain that it might not be within our gift, powers or resources—nor, indeed, within devolved competence—to resolve.

However, on amendments 189 and 190, we might be able to put something in the bill in relation to that issue that is proportionate and effective and that provides useful information that is not currently delivered elsewhere—for example, by Food Standards Scotland in relation to its statutory role and responsibilities. I therefore ask Beatrice Wishart and Rachael Hamilton not to move their respective amendments, so that we can have that further discussion before stage 3. If they do move them, I urge members not to support them.

I understand the desire for scrutiny of the use of public funds, but amendment 64 would create an arbitrary reporting requirement when it is important that we do not place restrictions on the timescale, method and publication of reporting. We all understand that farming and crofting is a long-term endeavour and that it takes time for outcomes to be realised, which is at odds with asking for annual reporting. Again, the proper place for that effective monitoring and evaluation is in the context of the rural support plan. Looking holistically at the impact of support in relation to the objectives of the bill and our statutory duties, I ask Rhoda Grant not to move amendment 64. If she does, I ask members not to support it.

Although I absolutely acknowledge that amendment 150 was lodged in good faith, I cannot accept that it is right to table arbitrary periods, nor to set exacting specifications, before the monitoring and evaluation framework has been co-developed if we are to ensure that the right information can be gained from those applying for the support that is on offer. I also think that the reporting required by the amendment would be very onerous, as well as very expensive to deliver, and would not be a good use of our limited resources. I will shortly speak about a substantial offer to return at stage 3 with more duties that the rural support plan must encompass, which I believe will address our positive intent more effectively. I therefore ask Colin Smyth not to move amendment 150. If he does move it, I ask members not to support it.

As I outlined in my initial comments on what we would look at in relation to the rural support plan, we want to consider how we can best help, because I absolutely appreciate that everybody wants the certainty of multi-annual funding. However, I am also trying to outline that, given the position and uncertainty that we are in, we have no idea whether we will get a budget, or what that might look like, beyond next year. We cannot commit to that in the bill, but we want to see what we can work with and what is available to us to look at in that space.

I hope that the committee will indulge me slightly, because there is clearly a lot for me to cover, and I want to pick up on each of the areas that have been identified by members who have lodged amendments in the group. From looking at all the amendments to sections 2 and 3, it is clear that there is, quite rightly, a lot of interest in the scrutiny, content and role of the rural support plan.

There have been lots of helpful suggestions about how the bill’s current provisions might be strengthened. It is crucial that we do not consider each element in isolation; we should consider them as a coherent whole to ensure that the plan is drafted and delivered and that it functions as we all want it to do.

The first rural support plan will need to take into account our transition from legacy EU CAP schemes to the new four-tier framework. The route map, which I have talked about at length in previous committee meetings, sets out the transition period, and we are actively co-developing the details of the tiers in the framework with rural partners and stakeholders. The transition period will, of course, have implications for the first plan that we produce, as we are constrained in practice by what currently exists while we develop the details of the new system.

I cannot make a commitment on a budget that I do not have. It would be irresponsible for me to do that.

I absolutely appreciate your point. I hope that you do not find too many examples of that where we have consulted in my own portfolio, because accessibility is fundamental and I think that we have some really good examples of consultations that we have undertaken. We have touched on the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Act 2022 and some of the engagement that was undertaken on that. We have worked with Nourish Scotland, which has done fantastic work in helping us to engage more widely, as well as with other organisations. That is important, because we want to ensure that people understand the information on which we are consulting and that the consultation is undertaken in an accessible way. We have obligations in relation to that, and all of that will be key to what we are considering when we look at the overall consultation requirements that I have set out. I hope that Ariane Burgess is reassured on that point.

With regard to amendment 120, I would probably have more sympathy with Rachael Hamilton’s point if it had not been for the fact that her party had created some of the trade barriers to the export and import of food from the EU, which may now mean that imports are coming from further afield than they previously did. In addition, in spite of the member’s explanation, I am not entirely clear as to what the intent behind gathering such information is, given the rurality and sparsity of the population in Scotland, particularly in our island communities, where, by definition, the number of food miles is going to be greater than what is needed to reach other areas. It is quite clear that we should be doing all that we can to produce more food and meet more of our own food needs, and to do that more sustainably in Scotland. That is a core aim of this Government.

I completely disagree with your assertion. As I have said, I fully intend to discuss matters with individual members, just as I undertook meetings with members to discuss potential amendments at stage 2. I intend to have those discussions—and to have them in good time.

It is important that we look at this holistically. As I have set out, there are different requirements in some of these amendments, and it is important that we take these things away, look at them and ensure that we have a workable plan that takes all of that into consideration.

I propose to speak to the amendments in my name before turning to the other amendments in the group. I have listened to the calls from the committee and stakeholders at stage 1 to provide further clarity on what ministers must have regard to in relation to land use in the preparation or amendment of the rural support plan. That is why I have lodged amendment 4.

I want to ensure that it is made clear to all that Scottish ministers have a clear and explicit duty to account for the broadest of considerations and impacts when devising a plan for the future support of agriculture. It might go without saying that such a duty exists, but it is right to put it plainly that Scottish ministers must have regard to statutory duties that relate to agriculture, biodiversity, land use and the environment.

Amendment 42, in the name of Elena Whitham, refers to biodiversity, too. It is a helpful addition that makes clear the breadth of considerations, so I very much welcome its inclusion. It is right that those duties are put at the heart of our rural support plan. I therefore ask the committee to accept amendment 4 in my name and to support Elena Whitham’s amendment 42.

Amendment 5 seeks to place fair work and conditionality, which is a Scottish Government policy across all public support, as a central objective for Scottish Government agricultural support. It puts fair work policy into legislation for all future support, which contributes to making fair work practices the norm in Scottish workplaces and, in doing so, supports the vision for Scotland to become a fair work nation.

I know that amendments in other groups and on other sections of the bill seek to add fair work considerations, but this feels like the best place to put it—at the heart of the rural support plan, from which the details of the framework, future tiers and schemes will flow.