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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 9 March 2026
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Displaying 3854 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that and for the evidence that you have given us this morning. Caroline Lamb and Derek Grieve, I thank you very much indeed for your time. I do not know about your diary, director general, but the committee has you booked to come back and see us in a couple of weeks’ time, in our final meeting of the parliamentary session. We look forward to that. If you want to follow up anything in writing, following this morning’s session, please do that. We would welcome anything that you wished to share with us.

I now suspend the meeting for a changeover in witnesses.

11:04

Meeting suspended.

11:09

On resuming—

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Public Pensions Agency”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

That is interesting. I think we are going to get the accountable officer from the agency in to see us in a couple of weeks’ time and can put some of these things to him.

You said in your opening statement that the Scottish Public Pensions Agency has a legal responsibility, which begs a question. Are there any financial consequences for the agency if the remedy is not addressed properly and on time?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Public Pensions Agency”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

I welcome everyone back. We have had a changeover of witnesses, and I am now very pleased to welcome to the committee the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle, to aid us in our consideration of the section 22 report that was recently published on the audit of the Scottish Public Pensions Agency for the financial year 2024-25. Alongside the Auditor General are Michael Oliphant, who is an audit director at Audit Scotland, and Stuart Nugent, who is a senior audit manager at Audit Scotland. Auditor General, I invite you to begin the evidence session with a short opening statement, after which we will put questions to you, Michael and Stuart.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Public Pensions Agency”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Thank you for outlining a little bit of the history of the situation. At the start of your statement, you mentioned transparency, and it strikes me as being of interest that there is such a variation in the level of assessments made for the different occupational pension schemes in the public sector. For example, in your report, you highlight the fact that 85 per cent of retired police scheme members have received their assessment, but zero per cent of retired firefighters have received their assessment. Why is there such a big variation between two groups of workers in that way?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Before you go on, I want to go back to one point. You gave a fairly clear commitment that you would be working with Public Health Scotland to produce total cost data, and the recommendation was that that should be done within the next 12 months. Will you meet that timetable?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Okay—that is fine. I invite Joe FitzPatrick to put some questions to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Public Pensions Agency”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

I turn to Joe FitzPatrick to put some questions.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

In response to one of Colin Beattie’s questions, you said that the answer is not more acute beds, but what about when health boards such as NHS Forth Valley close wards? It closed ward A11 of the Forth Valley royal hospital and has reduced the bed capacity. Do you have to sanction that, or is that a decision for the health board to take on its own? Do you have a general view about the contraction of capacity? Looking at the report, the lack of available beds is clearly highlighted as an issue.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

I am afraid that the families whose relatives were in that ward would not see that as an exemplar. I will not go into any more detail, but let me assure you that that is not how they saw it—and, frankly, it is not how the staff at the hospital saw it either.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Delayed discharges: A symptom of the challenges facing health and social care” and “Community health and social care: Performance 2025”

Meeting date: 18 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Picking up on that final question, one of the striking things in the briefing on community health and social care performance is exhibit 4 at the end, which talks about the impact of inequalities and the importance of reducing them. It points out clearly the huge gap in life expectancy, both male and female, between the most deprived and least deprived areas in Scotland, and it talks about the relationship between deprivation and the frequency in the use of day beds, premature mortality in areas of dense population and—this takes us back to the letter that Mr Simpson read out—the higher rates of unpaid care in some of the most deprived communities.

There are some fundamental social and economic structural issues out there, are there not? I acknowledge that it is perhaps not your sole responsibility to challenge and remedy them, but do you, in your position, take a view on those things? What is the Government doing to try to address the huge inequalities that exist?