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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 28 February 2026
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Displaying 3801 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Could I act as a little bridge between Mr Beattie and Mr Simpson? You were asked about how long this had been going on. Ms Brown, you arrived in September 2024, so you cannot really speak for before that date.

We know that these 400 electronic purchasing cards presumably existed before that date. I am looking to the Scottish Government here, really. We know that the complementary tickets policy presumably predated September 2024. Did you not flag up any concerns about the existing procedures that were in place? That question is for either Mr Hogg or Ms Riach. Do you think that they would have pre-dated Ms Brown’s arrival?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Thanks for clarifying that. Mr Simpson will ask some questions about that issue but, before he does so, I must just say that I think that 400 e-purchasing cards is rather a large number for a permanent workforce of 1,600 people—Ms Duthie told us in evidence that she thought that it was a high number. I recognise that those 400 people may all be honest and be complying with all the rules and requirements and so on, but it seems like a huge number of people to have electronic purchasing cards on behalf of the organisation. Do you agree?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

I think that that is what we established earlier on. I think that we need to move on to the travel issues and so on, not least because of time.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Joe FitzPatrick has been waiting patiently to ask some final questions.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of Historic Environment Scotland”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

You mentioned earlier that an organisational and cultural review has been commissioned and scoped. We look forward to seeing the outcome of that. Whether it will be the members here who see that outcome remains to be seen, but it would be useful for us to be kept up to date on it.

We are also aware that the Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee of the Parliament has been taking evidence from you and looking at what has happened with the findings of the Audit Scotland report, so we will liaise with that committee to see how we can assist it in its work.

For the time being, I thank all the witnesses for coming along this morning and being open to giving evidence to us. I thank Shona Riach and Kenneth Hogg from the Scottish Government. I thank Mark Jones, Stephen Uphill, and particularly Katerina Brown, from Historic Environment Scotland, for being open and willing to answer our questions. That is much appreciated.

I move the committee into private session.

12:37

Meeting continued in private until 13:02.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the fifth meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2026. Agenda item 1 is for members of the committee to decide whether to take agenda items 4 to 7 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”, and “Financial sustainability and taxes”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

We will take two items of evidence in public this morning. The first is consideration of Audit Scotland’s section 22 report, “The 2024/45 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts” and its “Financial sustainability and taxes” report.

I am pleased to welcome to the meeting the permanent secretary, Joe Griffin, who will answer our questions on both those reports. Good morning, Mr Griffin. Attending alongside the permanent secretary from the Scottish Government are Gregor Irwin, the director general economy; Jackie McAllister, the chief finance officer; and Shona Riach, the director general exchequer, strategy and performance.

We have some questions to put to you all, but before we get to them, I would like the permanent secretary to make an opening statement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”, and “Financial sustainability and taxes”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

But do you not consider yourselves in breach of the Scottish public finance manual?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”, and “Financial sustainability and taxes”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

That was a very long answer, but when I look at the Scottish public finance manual, it is crystal clear. Under the heading “Absence of Accountable Officer”, it says that if an accountable officer is expected to be absent for longer than four weeks, the principal accountable officer should be notified and action should be taken to appoint an interim replacement. The principal accountable officer is you, Mr Griffin, is it not?

I get that if somebody was off for four, five or six weeks, there might be some bridging arrangement, but if they are off for six months, that means that an organisation that is responsible for 1,600 members of staff and has a turnover of public money does not have an accountable officer for that period.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Section 22 Report: “The 2024/25 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”, and “Financial sustainability and taxes”

Meeting date: 4 February 2026

Richard Leonard

We have an evidence session with representatives from the GFG Alliance coming up. If you can share any of the advice that you get with the committee in advance of that session, it would be very useful. In the interests of time, I will move on. I invite Graham Simpson to put some questions to you.