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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 22 April 2025
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Displaying 3014 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thanks. That would be helpful.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Great. I will turn to what you have said about progress on public service reform. There is a certain clarity in what you have said about that in the section 23 report. You are fairly blunt after paragraph 68 in saying:

“The Scottish Government does not know what savings will result from reform, or what reform efforts will cost”.

You also say that

“The Scottish Government’s governance arrangements for reform were ineffective and have recently changed”

and that

“The Scottish Government is not providing effective leadership on reform”.

In paragraph 87, you say that

“the impact on outcomes is not currently considered or monitored as part of the reform process”,

so it is not considered at all and neither is it monitored.

Those are fairly fundamental criticisms of the Scottish Government’s approach to public service reform, are they not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

You highlight a familiar theme for the Public Audit Committee and in your reports: what is, to all intents and purposes, an implementation gap. There is a stated Government ambition, but delivery on the ground does not match up with that. That is the summation of what you are saying in the report, is it not?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay. You also mention governance arrangements in the report and say that a new PSR board has been established. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Who is on it? What are its terms of reference? What is its plan of action?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I do not think that “speeding up” and that sentence really fit. Not for the first time, the committee is hearing about a structure that has been established that is not really meeting, which rather belies the priority that it is being afforded, I would have thought. Are the minutes of the board published?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. I have a couple of final questions and I think that Graham Simpson also wants to come in. I will bring him in shortly, but I want to touch on a couple of things. We think that it is important to get your answers to these questions on the record.

One of the weaknesses that you cite is the way in which equalities and human rights impact assessments are dealt with and whether or not they are built into the beginning of decisions about public service reform. Do you want to outline for us how you think that decision making is being enacted and whether or not equality and human rights impact assessments are part of that or an afterthought or are not given sufficient priority at all?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

One of the things that really struck me was what you say a couple of paragraphs later. You say that, despite the Scottish Government contacting public bodies three times since January 2023 to assess their ability to carry out reform,

“These requests did not generate concrete information on the quantity, quality or anticipated impact of public bodies’ collective work on reform.”

Again, that is a fairly basic requirement, is it not? What is your understanding of the reason why the requests did not elicit any useful answers from the public bodies that the Government spoke to three times?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, you reference in the report that there is a lack of data on workforce, estates and so on. I know that it is not completely analogous and I may be stretching things a little bit, but Scottish Canals was in front of us a couple of years ago, in consecutive years, because it failed to carry out a proper asset audit to comply with the standards expected. Yet, in a sense, in your report you are saying that the Scottish Government does not know what assets and what estate it has, never mind the valuation of it. There appear to be big gaps in information here.

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

You will be delighted to learn that I have only one budget-related question for you before I move on to some other final areas.

Earlier, you touched on the ScotWind leasing revenues. Yesterday, it was announced that over £300 million of those revenues will be spent on their intended purpose, which, presumably, is reinvestment in the green agenda, renewables and so on. However, in exhibit 5 of your report, you identify that the revenue raised from that was not £300 million, but £756 million. Therefore, my question is this: what is your sense of where the rest of the money has gone? Has it been spent as part of general in-year expenditure, or has it been earmarked for something else in the future?

Public Audit Committee

“Fiscal sustainability and reform in Scotland”

Meeting date: 5 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I am sorry, but I was never very good at arithmetic. You mentioned £200 million and £460 million, but the figure in the report is £756 million. Is there a missing £100 million somewhere?