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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 3014 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I will pick up on one thing that Maggie Page said, which is that the residential rehab sector is underdeveloped—you painted a picture as though this is year zero. Was there not a much greater level of capacity previously and then a contraction—so what we are seeing now is an expansion on the back of a former period of reduction of a lot of those places?

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

On that last point, I am bound to observe that the issue is not just about poverty; it is about inequality. As a Parliament, we should perhaps spend a bit of time looking at that issue in a bit more depth.

I draw this morning’s evidence session to a close. I thank each witness for the answers that they have given to our wide-ranging questions. On behalf of the committee, I thank Scott Heald from Public Health Scotland for his evidence; Maggie Page from the drugs strategy unit for answering the questions that we put to her; and Caroline Lamb, the chief executive of NHS Scotland, director general of health and social care and accountable officer, for appearing before us and helping to answer the questions that we posed.

10:53 Meeting continued in private until 11:12.  

Public Audit Committee

“Alcohol and drug services”

Meeting date: 19 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, thank you. The other recommendation in this report for which there is not that clear phrase,

“The Scottish Government accepts this recommendation”,

is in relation to a human rights-based approach to tackling alcohol and drug dependency and relying on the lived and living experience of people who are using services or maybe, in some cases, are not able to access them. Do you accept the recommendation that there needs to be more focus on a rights-based approach?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Again, that is helpful. Stuart Dennis alluded in passing to the estates strategy. In previous years, when looking at the budget, we have discussed your plans to change the distribution of your staff—where they work from and so on. In broad terms, that was about reducing the head count and your footprint in Edinburgh and increasing those in Glasgow. You say in your submission that that has netted savings overall. Therefore, are those savings still on track and how is the estates strategy going?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Thank you. Again, that will be helpful in informing our decision making today, which, after all, is to decide whether or not to agree your budget.

There is a second point that I want to make, following the questions that Mark Ruskell asked. An old trade union organiser thought went through my head—do any of the staff who you employ work on contracts that provide for them to be paid overtime?

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

There is some kind of governance system that has oversight.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, that is fine. It is just that we were talking about the potential exposure to risk and the importance of us challenging the model that you are describing, and I just wanted to understand that point. I acknowledge that you have given a categorical reply.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I want to pick up a couple of loose ends from the previous two rounds of questions. Of course, our job is to challenge, so, for the record, I note that not all of us believe in the inevitability of downsizing as an approach, and I think that you have described why there are times when you need to expand and reshape the skill sets that you have. Your responses on that have been very useful for us as a commission to understand what is happening with your overall staffing cost.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

I am glad to hear it.

I will move on from staffing issues to other areas. In your proposal document, there is a section headed “Other operating costs”. In that section, you itemise what you call the “main areas of movement”—by “movement”, I think that you mean “increase”. I want to probe some of the areas that you have highlighted.

You talk about “Resource system implementation”. Forgive me if you covered this earlier, with a different descriptor, but could you perhaps tell us a little bit more about what that work is and how it is being delivered? Is it being delivered in-house? Is it externalised? Are you bringing in people to do that through an outsourced model? If you could begin by telling us what it is, that would be helpful.

Meeting of the Commission

Audit Scotland Budget Proposal 2025-26

Meeting date: 18 December 2024

Richard Leonard

Okay, and you have systems in place to make sure that it is delivering value for money.