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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 April 2025
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Displaying 3014 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

To give a fuller picture, if I look at the A and E stats, NHS Forth Valley and NHS Lanarkshire perform very poorly, do they not? The statutory target is for 95 per cent of people to receive treatment within four hours, but Lanarkshire’s performance is 55 per cent and Forth Valley’s is 54 per cent.

I will ask you a question that was posed to the Auditor General when he was here. Is there any correlation between poor performance in A and E and better performance in some of those other indicators?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

We are going to touch on some of those performance measures as the morning progresses. Before I take us to another area, I place on record my membership of two trade unions that organise in the national health service.

I turn to staff sickness absence rates, which is recorded in this annual performance report on the NHS in Scotland as being at a 10-year high. What is your assessment of that issue, what are you doing to address it, and how are you going to turn it around?

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Yes—the Public Audit Committee is indeed very interested in tackling digital exclusion.

I am conscious of the time, so I will bring in Stuart McMillan.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

We have covered an awful lot of ground this morning. If the budget is passed in a few weeks, the NHS budget will rise to £21 billion, for which you, Caroline Lamb, will be the accountable officer. Because it constitutes 40 per cent of the entire Scottish budget, it is important that we, as the Public Audit Committee, scrutinise what you are doing and examine areas where things are not going quite as well as we would like.

There is also a great deal of public interest in health and social care, and I think the national health service remains probably the best-loved public institution that we have.

I thank Caroline Lamb, Alan Gray and John Burns very much for their time and co-operation this morning, in answering our questions.

11:43 Meeting continued in private until 12:15.  

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much for putting that on the record.

I turn to the review of actions since the previous report—“NHS in Scotland 2023”—was issued. Appendix 2 of the most recent report charts the progress that is being made since then. In broad terms, the Auditor General finds that some of the recommendations that were made last year are “In progress”. That includes the medium-term financial strategy, which the committee has been concerned about because of its delayed announcement; I think that we are now expecting to see it in spring this year. The Auditor General also notes that an update to the national workforce strategy is “In progress”, although he says that “no timeline is confirmed.” He then talks about “Limited progress” on a long-term vision, and says:

“The restated vision from the Scottish Government does not clearly set out national priorities or provide a framework for reform.”

I wonder whether you could comment on those areas.

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the fourth meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee. Agenda item 1 is to decide whether to take items 3, 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to do so?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed. I will move on and invite Graham Simpson to put questions to you.

Public Audit Committee

“NHS in Scotland 2024: Finance and performance”

Meeting date: 29 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Waiting like a coiled spring is the very patient deputy convener, Jamie Greene, who has some final questions to put to the witnesses. Thank you for your forbearance, Jamie.

SPCB Supported Bodies Landscape Review Committee

Interests

Meeting date: 23 January 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much, convener. I have no relevant interests to declare.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2023/24 audit of the Scottish Government Consolidated Accounts”

Meeting date: 22 January 2025

Richard Leonard

The committee welcomes that advance. Whether it meets the standard of transparency that we are looking for will depend on how much is redacted and how much you are able to share with us. We will see the outcomes in the course of the next few weeks, and I am sure that we will have further conversations with you about that.

I take you back to my initial question. I had an exchange with the First Minister about the transparency review at the Conveners Group in September, in which part of his response was, “Yes, we’re learning lessons from the Covid inquiry and so on.” Some of our concerns in this area stem from the ferries contracts—not only how those contracts were awarded, but the extent to which we were able to get to the bottom of how they were awarded and who was involved. The committee had concerns about whether proper recording of ministerial meetings took place. There were questions about whether special advisers constituted civil servants and where decisions were made. For example, the decisions to award the contract to Ferguson Marine Engineering Ltd and those on the two loans worth £45 million did not go to the Cabinet.

We thought that the transparency review would go much broader than the strategic commercial assets division. That is also what I took from what the First Minister said in the exchange that I had with him. Could you clarify that?