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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 16 November 2025
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Displaying 3485 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. One of the things that we are interested in is the gap that might exist between the theory and the practice. The issue is whether the good practice that you have outlined is actually being followed through, whether it was followed through in session 5 and, if not, how we came to that situation. Martin Whitfield and I wrote to you initially about our concerns that came out of the section 22 report by Audit Scotland, and one of the underlying issues that we outlined in our letter was how things could have got to that stage and why there was not much earlier intervention.

Something else that is referred to in the correspondence is enhanced governance arrangements. The expression that is used in the report is that they had

“deteriorated to a significant degree”.

There is a record of deep-seated problems at almost an interinstitutional level. Could you outline to us what progress you have made in the area of enhancing the governance arrangements and seeking to address the clear deficiencies that gave rise to the section 22 report into the ethical standards commissioner?

Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning and welcome to the 23rd meeting in 2022 of the Public Audit Committee. The first item on our agenda is to decide whether to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private. Do members agree to take those items in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

That might be a philosophical point, Mr Hoy.

I will look more closely at the pilots. One of the pilots that is highlighted in the report was undertaken in Fife Council on the national entitlement cards for travel. How long did that pilot take place for? What period did it cover?

09:45  

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes, a single bus journey of £3.10 may not be worthy of a major national exercise in trying to understand what is happening.

Another interesting area that you mention is the pilot that is under way with Social Security Scotland. That pilot looks particularly at whether there are examples of people claiming benefits as if they are resident in Scotland when they actually are not resident in Scotland and at any cases of people who have multiple addresses and are, therefore, putting in multiple claims. How many matches have you found through that pilot?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

Do you have a sense of the scale of that? Is it at the level of national entitlement card fraud in Fife, or is it much more widespread?

Public Audit Committee

“National Fraud Initiative in Scotland 2022”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I do not want to put words in the witnesses’ mouths but they said in answer to the initial question that was put to them on the blue badge scheme that the mortality rate among people with disabilities was higher than that in the general population. That might explain why there was a rise during the period. It is worth waiting to see what the next round of NFI results tells us about that before we jump to any conclusions.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I take you back to Sharon Dowey’s initial question on the practice of conferring with the clerks on areas that the corporate body considers that committees should scrutinise office-holders on. Did that take place in session 5—yes or no?

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I will bring Willie Coffey back in later, but I will now switch to Craig Hoy.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

I am not sure that the committee believes in coincidences, Mr Williams, but we are keen to be kept abreast of the progress that you are making, because that was an important recommendation in the Auditor General’s report.

Willie Coffey has another couple of questions before I turn to, last but not least, Colin Beattie.

Public Audit Committee

Section 22 Report: “The 2020/21 audit of the Commissioner for Ethical Standards in Public Life in Scotland”

Meeting date: 29 September 2022

Richard Leonard

On that constructive suggestion by the committee to our witnesses, I draw this evidence session to a close. I thank Maggie Chapman, David McGill and Huw Williams for being prepared to come to committee this morning to answer the questions that we had and respond to what has, by common consent, been a very difficult situation that has raised some pretty fundamental questions about the governance structures and whether they need to be reformed.

As I said, we are a committee that is principally concerned with outcomes and not necessarily with reviews. We will discuss our next steps, but I am sure that we will be keeping a close eye on the issue to understand how effectively any changes that you have heralded are implemented. I thank the witnesses once again for their time this morning.

10:57 Meeting continued in private until 11:40.