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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 17 September 2025
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Displaying 3340 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 19th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2022. Under item 1, does the committee agree to take agenda items 4 and 5 in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you for that introduction. The watchword this morning might well be “transparency”.

I will ask the first question. What were the criteria for allocation between the different funds? Have you been able to establish why certain funds were of a certain value and others were of a different value? What work have you done to establish whether those funds were value for money?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I am not sure that it is that keen if that undertaking was given three months ago and it still has not been fulfilled, but the committee can take a view on that.

It is not unusual for you to sit before us and talk about a lack of good-quality data. Looking at the reports that are before us today, it seems to me that that is really what you are saying again. Given the investigations that you have already conducted, how confident are you that we will get the good-quality data that allows for the transparency that we all want to see?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I have one final question. There are examples of companies that have taken millions in furlough money—I know that that support is reserved to the UK—but have also taken millions in Government compensation towards their fixed costs. I see that in the same financial year, those companies that are taking that significant amount of public money are also paying out substantial dividends to shareholders or doubling their directors’ pay. Some of those companies are registered in tax havens. Were any of those things taken into consideration in drafting the criteria for who was eligible for Government support?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Craig Hoy has some more questions about fraud.

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

On that point, do we know the number of jobs that were lost as a result of 5.4 per cent of private sector businesses ceasing to operate? I take it that that is a net figure. Do we know yet what sectors those jobs were in?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

That is fine; I would certainly welcome that.

I have two final summarising questions. The first about the overall assessment of Covid-19 spend by the Scottish Government, which we have touched on during this evidence session and which Ashleigh Madjitey mentioned. Do you have a timeframe for when that information will be in the public domain?

My second and final question pulls some of this together. Auditor General, what do you think the key themes are from the inquiries that you have carried out, and what are the critical lessons to be learned from the completely unforeseen experience that we have all been through?

Public Audit Committee

“Scotland’s economy: supporting businesses through the Covid-19 pandemic”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

On that note, I thank you, Auditor General, for the evidence that you have led this morning. I also thank Richard Robinson, Ashleigh Madjitey and Martin McLauchlan for their valuable input.

I briefly suspend the meeting to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

10:22 Meeting suspended.  

10:24 On resuming—  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Good morning again, and welcome back to the 19th meeting of the Public Audit Committee in 2022. Agenda item 3 is consideration of the report produced by the Auditor General on social security and implementing the devolved benefits. I am pleased that, for this evidence session, the Auditor General has been joined by Carole Grant, who is an audit director at Audit Scotland.

I will begin, Auditor General, by inviting you to give us a short opening statement, after which we will have questions from members of the committee.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “Social security: Progress on implementing the devolved benefits”

Meeting date: 23 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. That is useful. I invite Craig Hoy to put a couple of questions.