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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 12 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. We are in the final few minutes of our meeting time. If Willie Coffey does not want to come back in—no, he is okay—Colin Beattie will make a final point or ask a question.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Yes.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

We are rapidly running out of time, but I know that there are substantive questions that Craig Hoy and Colin Beattie want to ask. I turn first to Colin Beattie.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. You are right to say that we will return to the themes that you outlined in your opening statement in the next hour or so, so thank you very much for that.

You will be aware that the Scottish Government has released a large number of emails that give us some sense of things that were going on from 2015 onwards. Can I take you back to August 2015? We have published correspondence from Transport Scotland to Keith Brown, who was the Cabinet Secretary for Infrastructure, Investment and Cities at the time. On 20 August 2015, correspondence seeks his approval for Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd to award FMEL shipbuilding contracts of a total cost of £96 million—I think that it went up to £97 million in the next few days—for two new major ferries. Towards the end of that correspondence, reference is made to the potential for a legal challenge from one of the unsuccessful shipyards. The correspondence goes on to state that CMAL was confident that it could defend any challenges in those circumstances, but it also uses the interesting phrase:

“that said, the relationship between Scottish ministers and Ferguson’s owner is well known”.

For the benefit of the committee, can you define the terms of that relationship at that time?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

I think that they are, but we are also paying attention to the outcomes here. Here we are, all this time later, and there are still no ferries. This guy may have been the world expert on naval procurement and ferry procurement, but the fact of the matter remains that this contract is two and a half times over budget and five years late.

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you. The final point that I would like to put to Mr McColl is that you have at times described this contract as “catastrophic” and you have called it “a fiasco”. Do you share any responsibility for that catastrophe?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Okay. I want to move us on to another area. You talked in your opening statement about why you feel that the contract has gone in the way that it has. If I take you again to the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee’s inquiry, one of the conclusions that it made was that

“... FMEL lacked the appropriate level of design capabilities ... failed to manage the design ... process effectively ... and proceeded to build the vessels before the design had been suitably developed and signed off.”

How do you respond to that conclusion?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

What did he say? I am sorry. Does he deny that or accede to it?

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed.

10:55 Meeting continued in private until 11:33.  

Public Audit Committee

Section 23 Report: “New vessels for the Clyde and Hebrides: Arrangements to deliver vessels 801 and 802”

Meeting date: 16 June 2022

Richard Leonard

Can I stop you there, Mr McColl? You have said, I think, in your evidence to the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee and in the written submission that you have given us that you were concerned about the relationship between the Scottish Government and CMAL.