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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 10 July 2025
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Displaying 3298 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay. You are leading me, inevitably, to questions about the Gresham House Forestry Fund, which was, for a while, the biggest investment that the Scottish National Investment Bank had made. Indeed, it went up to your £50 million limit. You might have heard me talk about this before, but when the investment in the Gresham House Forestry Fund was first announced, I looked at the basis of the fund, and it appeared to be less about saving the planet and planting trees than it was about helping wealthy people avoid paying tax. How do you respond to that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I am reminded of the century-old question of the Macmillan gap and whether there is sufficient patient capital for the small and medium-sized enterprise sector, but that is a whole other discussion, which we do not have time for.

I thank Willie Watt and Al Denholm for their participation in the committee’s work. It has been a long session, but we have found it productive, illuminating and valuable for the committee. There are a couple of areas that we might want to follow up on, but we will be in contact with you to remind you of those and to seek any further information. If we do not see you again, Mr Denholm, we wish you well for your long and prosperous retirement. You never know, we might see Mr Watt again before the parliamentary session finishes.

I close the public part of the meeting and move the committee into private session.

11:34 Meeting continued in private until 12:41.  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I also want to ask about what, to me, sounded a bit like potential mission creep. My concept of the investment bank is that it is there to stimulate indigenous businesses and—I say this as a bit of a romantic—boost the manufacturing sector, which I think is important if we are to have a balanced economy. Can you take us through this whole thing about asset management? I am not asking you to repeat the answers that you gave to Colin Beattie, but I felt that, when you were talking about that, there could be a danger—perhaps not under your tenure, Mr Watt, nor under Mr Denholm’s, but with the people coming after you—that some might see themselves more as asset managers than innovative state interventionist generators of local jobs, promoting manufacturing and so on. How do you ensure that the institution does not transform itself into a patient capital asset manager instead of being a nimble, fleet-of-foot and innovative stimulator of economic development?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Before I bring in Colin Beattie, I want to take you back to your answer to Graham Simpson some time ago, when you said that changing the public sector regime would require legislation. Would it not just require a change to the Treasury rules? In other words, have you done any research that leads you to the conclusion that a change in the law would be required, rather than it just being a matter of reforming the way that the Treasury works?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

I am not really questioning whether it is legal; I am questioning the ethics of it.

I will move on. The other thing that has happened, subsequent to your decision to invest in it, is that the Gresham House Forestry Fund has been taken over by a New York-based private equity fund. You mentioned the covenants that you take out with investees to ensure that they retain their headquarters here. Gresham House was never headquartered here. It was previously headquartered in London, and it is now headquartered in New York. Ardersier port, which is another one of your maximum investments, is owned by an organisation that is headquartered in Houston, Texas. Are those matters any consideration of yours at all?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Jamie Greene has a question about Circularity Scotland before we move on.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Okay, but is it appropriate—perhaps this is for you, Mr Watt—that public money is being invested in a venture that involves a partner whose principal purpose is to show people ways that they can avoid inheritance tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax and avoid paying into the public purse? Is there not any ethical consideration around such a decision?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

During the course of this morning’s meeting, we will probe those areas a little bit more. The environment in which you operate is one of the issues that is highlighted in the Audit Scotland report; it is certainly something that members of the committee want to ask the two of you about.

I invite Graham Simpson to open this morning’s questioning.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

Funnily enough, the deputy convener has some questions in this area, too, as well as some others. Over to you, Jamie.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“Scottish National Investment Bank”

Meeting date: 25 June 2025

Richard Leonard

That is fine. If you have the opportunity to put something in writing to reflect any research that you have done in that area, that would be helpful for the committee.