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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 5 December 2025
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Displaying 3543 contributions

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Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Grampian”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. To get us under way, I invite Graham Simpson to lead off.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Ayrshire and Arran”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

I will now turn to Joe FitzPatrick, who has some questions to put to you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

Good morning. I welcome everyone to the 31st meeting in 2025 of the Public Audit Committee.

Under agenda item 1, do members of the committee agree to take agenda items 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 this morning in private?

Members indicated agreement.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

Decision on Taking Business in Private

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Ayrshire and Arran”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

You have said a couple of times already this morning that your concern is that there is no evidence that the board can achieve financial sustainability. How has it come to that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Ayrshire and Arran”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you. We now have a final couple of questions from the deputy convener, Jamie Greene.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Ayrshire and Arran”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

Thank you very much indeed.

We have another evidence session up and coming on NHS Grampian, which was also the subject of a section 22 report. Before we turn to that, I will take this opportunity to thank Fiona Mitchell-Knight, the Auditor General and Leigh Johnston for the evidence that you have given us on the position of NHS Ayrshire and Arran.

I suppose that, for context, we need to understand the point that you made towards the end, which is that not all the 14 territorial health boards have required brokerage. The question for us as the Public Audit Committee is why some boards have required it and others have not. Maybe there are fundamental issues about the funding formula—who knows? I think that there are some wider points that we need to get a better understanding of.

Thank you very much indeed for what has been a very useful session for us. I will now suspend the meeting while we change witnesses.

10:49 Meeting suspended.  

10:53 On resuming—  

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Grampian”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

That is a moot point and a question for our times, is it not?

I now invite the deputy convener to ask some questions.

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Grampian”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

I have a question before we leave this area. Auditor General, you have mentioned the KPMG report a couple of times. One of the key messages that the auditor attached to the report is that staffing levels are out of kilter with the number of beds in NHS Grampian. The report goes on to cite different grades. It says, for example, that there has been a 16.4 per cent increase of nursing whole-time-equivalent staff in the past three years, a 17.8 per cent increase of medical and dental WTEs, an 18.2 per cent increase among the administrative staff, and an increase of over 33 per cent when we get to other therapeutic staff. KPMG’s argument is that there are far too many people employed by NHS Grampian and that its cost base is out of line; it says that that is a deficit driver that it would not expect and so on. However, if the narrative is that these are positions that were previously outsourced to agencies at great expense and have now been brought in-house, that might be a good thing. Do you have a view on that?

Public Audit Committee [Draft]

“The 2024/25 audit of NHS Grampian”

Meeting date: 26 November 2025

Richard Leonard

I am not quite sure that that is what I took from the KPMG report. You have said, and it is in your section 22 report, that NHS Grampian has the lowest bed base per 1,000 population and so on, yet one of the things that is highlighted in the KPMG report is that there has been a further reduction in the number of beds available in NHS Grampian. It also goes on to talk about how artificial intelligence could be brought in to replace some of what it describes as lower grade staff. I am not quite sure whether we would sign up to that, but there are some ideas out there about how things can be streamlined, are there not?.

I guess that there are broader questions here about bed numbers, which is an issue that came up in our discussion about NHS Ayrshire and Arran. Is reducing the number of beds one of the Government’s targets as a means of driving down the cost base in territorial health boards?