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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 21 April 2025
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Displaying 708 contributions

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Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

Everyone talks about parity of esteem, but we need to actually deliver that, which will require a cultural change. It will require us to help parents, who are major influencers of young people when they come to make choices, to recognise that an apprenticeship represents no less of a future than a university qualification—which is not to take anything away from university qualifications.

We really need to ban the word “vocational”. We talk about vocational qualifications, but why do we differentiate between the academic and the vocational? As soon as we do that, people ask whether “vocational” means “lesser” or what it means. It is a simple thing, but we must watch our language. We spoke about the language earlier. Going to college and training to be a joiner or a plumber is no less positive a destination than going to university. We must all watch our language if we are to change people’s views on the career openings for our young people.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

Lesley, do you want to start?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

That has not happened yet. We have invited the principals groups of the colleges and universities to put forward names of appropriate individuals—who is appropriate might change according to what we are exploring—so that the practitioner’s voice is heard loud and clear in the room, for the cabinet secretary’s benefit. I cannot say who will be involved—it will be up to those groups to decide who to put forward. It is incredibly important to have that representation of principals’ thoughts and ideas, which will help to drive the work in the right way.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

I talked earlier about taking the time to avoid unintended consequences, and that is one that has been flagged to us. We are not as convinced as the universities are that that is a legitimate concern in reality, but we respect the view that they have expressed and we will, of course, take the issue on board, because it would be counterproductive if we were to do something like that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

Do you mean for apprenticeships?

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

I will give a general answer and then bring in Jane Duffy, because she is sighted on that.

I would be surprised if our universities were blockers to anything. The university principals with whom I engage are very open to developing their offering, notwithstanding the fact that it needs to be financially viable for them to do so. If there is not a critical mass of students, it becomes difficult to put together a course and deliver it in a cost-effective way. In a general sense, I find universities very open. The earn-as-you-learn approach is being used by a number of universities, and the University of Strathclyde and Glasgow Caledonian University are very much developing that graduate apprenticeship approach.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

Okay. I will bring in Jane Duffy, because she has been working on that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

It will not surprise you that I come back to you and ask, “From where?” That is the issue that we have. If the argument is that colleges or any other element of the landscape would require some sort of initial pump-priming support to make the changes that need to be made, it has to come from somewhere. That is the immediate issue—the budget circumstances that we find ourselves in as a result of the public finances.

However, James Withers is also very clear in his report that there is no shortage of money in the system. One of the things that I am looking at—it is not the main driver—is where we can free up moneys in the system to redeploy to areas that we need to support, if those become the areas of focus. If you are away to press me on that and ask me to give you specifics, I cannot do that right now, but we are looking at that. For example, where is there duplication that can be avoided? If that can free up moneys, what would that free up? That is part of our thinking at the moment. I cannot say that that will happen overnight, because it will not, but it is a driver for us at the moment.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

One way or another, I expect us to take forward pretty much everything that is in the Withers review. We are still considering the merits of a number of smaller things but, overwhelmingly, we understand—as you can tell from the reaction of the elements of the sector to the review—that what he calls for is right. We are proceeding on the basis that we are looking to deliver that.

Education, Children and Young People Committee

Post-school Education and Skills Reform

Meeting date: 10 January 2024

Graeme Dey

I am trying to be as helpful as possible.

As you know, we have embarked on a pilot project, which was open to bids. Those that bid were overwhelmingly successful. There are around 21 projects, all of which will be undertaken by universities. We extended the initial deadline to facilitate more applications.

Those projects are due to proceed over the next three months, after which they will be assessed, with a view to providing the programme in the next financial year. I am grateful to all who helped to shape the approach that has been taken.

It would be fair to say that, if there was any criticism, it would be that the timescale is pretty tight, which contributed to the level of applications that were made. However, I think that that has happened in respect of other matters as well.

The plan is to deliver those projects and assess the outcome, with a view to what we do as we go forward, bearing in mind that we want to deliver something that is complementary and supplementary to, not a replication of, the Turing scheme. I am grateful in particular to the universities that helped to progress the programme.