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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 5 January 2025
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Displaying 1041 contributions

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Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

Absolutely.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

I do not think that the bill should be paused. I know that some folks are opposed to the change that we are trying to make. There are concerns. We will talk to and listen to folk about their concerns and will work our way through those with them.

I come back to a point that I made before. You have heard it in evidence here and other committees have heard the same. Folks want answers to some of the questions on aspects that we have said will be subject to co-design. I cannot, at the moment, make assumptions about that or we will lose the confidence of those folks who want to help us to co-design services as we move forward.

I come back to the point that we want to ensure that we have good law and good implementation, and that we bridge the implementation gap. The only way that we can do that well is by having the voices of lived experience—and of other stakeholders who have not previously been involved to this degree in the shaping of services—at the table. As we move forward with that work, we will ensure that the business cases are there and that they can be fully scrutinised by all. I want to be as transparent as possible in this whole process, but I am not able to answer questions now about certain aspects of it, because if I did that, the co-design would be said by many to be a sham.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

The rephasing that Ms Bell has outlined is to ensure that we have the right skills in place as we move forward. We will continue to ensure that we have the resource to allow for meaningful engagement with people with lived and living experience and other stakeholders. However, we will give the committee more detail on that issue, too.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

You are trying to paint me into a corner. That is part of the co-design process. We must discuss with folks how they see the future. I would not paint myself into a corner by saying that the minimum would be eight or nine or the maximum would be 32. A fair number of ideas and suggestions will come out during the co-design work. I have heard a lot of ideas and suggestions myself, but I will leave others to bring those to the table when it comes to co-design.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

Is that helpful?

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

What we will continue to do as we move forward, as I said earlier, is to update all of our assumptions in the FM and business cases, but I do not think that it is possible to change the financial memorandum before stage 3.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

I have said on the record that we will consult stakeholders and the public on the secondary legislation and that we will allow the maximum time for scrutiny. We need to get this absolutely right. I am not in the business of rushing that secondary legislation. To get this right, we have to take the necessary time.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

No.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

At no point today have I used the term “standardisation”, and I never will.

Finance and Public Administration Committee

National Care Service (Scotland) Bill: Financial Memorandum

Meeting date: 8 November 2022

Kevin Stewart

I do not like folk putting words in my mouth: I have not, at any point today, indicated that there are likely to be fewer care boards. I have not said that at all. I have said that everything is subject to co-design. As regards personalisation, the person-centred approach will be at very the heart of all that we do. We have moved in the direction of personalisation, which has made advances in some ways, but not in others. We want to ensure that people have as much autonomy and freedom as they can have regarding some of the services that they require.

Let me give the committee an example. One frustration for me concerns self-directed support. The Parliament passed the Social Care (Self-directed Support) (Scotland) Act 2013, which was very good in its intention. Folk have found loopholes in some of the primary legislation and in many places they have not gone with the spirit of the act. We are currently changing the guidance again, so as to change the position, but we need to go further to allow people the autonomy and freedom to commission their own care if that is what they want to do, giving them the options that were laid out in the 2013 act, many of which are not available in certain local authority areas.

Beyond that, we should listen to people about where the legislation has worked for them and where it has failed. There are examples of local flexibilities that have been put in place and which have been absolute game changers in some people’s lives, yet other people in other parts of the country have not had access to the same services—services that would make their lives much better.

The scenario that I have highlighted concerns the personalisation of services to a greater degree, putting human rights at the very heart of things. In some places, we have not done very well on that front.